Marketing the Metaverse

The Metaverse is in all of the headlines,

but to describe what it is – that’s another story. Just as the internet evolved into HTML and browsers, so the shift into immersive technologies will challenge marketers, content creators, brands and just about anyone else who wants to reach people.

But is Meta’s vision what we really want? Do we really want to have a virtual coffee with someone while wearing a 500 gram headset? 500 grams is the weight of a hedgehog! Or, to be more precice – a little more than a pound. Will we attend virtual conferences, Zoom showed us that we would attend meetings – if we had to…

What is hype, what do people actually want, and what are some tangible promises of Metaverse?

Come along for the conversation as Raquelle Zuzarte gives us a guided tour of what we can expect in Web 3.0.

Marketing the Metaverse


[00:00:00] Zuzarte: So what I believe is gonna happen is that we are going to essentially use the device that we all have, which is the smartphone. And the entryway into these experiences is going to be through augmented reality, cause AR is much more accessible, it is also, an opportunity to have that versatility of that experience, in your home life, in your work life, in the community.

I believe that we’re going to see more and more influencers, designers, technologists, you know, think about, how to make AR really an effective way to connect for commerce, continue with gaming, and we saw that with Pokemon early, you know, early on, to learn for our learning and to create.

So I think that the technology is going to get lighter, cheaper, more accessible over time, but in the meantime, we’re going to really, experience the power of AR, and potentially the power of extended reality and mixed reality, to get to that point, and how it will sequence its way into full immersive, a hundred percent virtuality is gonna depend on, us, the consumers, what are we ready for? What are we willing to pay?

[00:01:15] Voice over Intro: Welcome to Endless Coffee Cup, a regular discussion of marketing, news, culture and media for our complex digital lifestyle. Join Matt Bailey as he engages in conversation to find insights beyond the latest headlines and deeper understanding for those involved in marketing.

Grab a cup of coffee. Have a seat and thanks for joining.

[00:01:37] Matt: Well hello and welcome to another edition of the Endless Coffee Cup podcast. As always, I’m your host, Matt Bailey, and I am so excited today because recently I’ve just been meeting amazing people, and Raquel is one of those amazing people that I have met because actually I was looking for a speaker on the Metaverse, and after I got started talking with Raquel, oh my goodness, more and more things about what she’s done and what she’s accomplished in marketing and still accomplishing, I had to have her on the podcast.

So I hope you enjoy this, we’re gonna explore a little bit of the Metaverse and we may even get into some other issues as well as Raquel, you’ve just come back, from the Ana Masters of Marketing, and I could tell you pumped up, you are excited .

So, listeners, I would love you to meet Raquel Zuzarte. Raquel, could you introduce yourself and a little bit of your background please?

[00:02:36] Zuzarte: Yeah absolutely, thanks so much Matt, for having me. It has been an energetic week, in warm Orlando and back here in New York. A little bit more, on the winter side I should say.

I’m Raquel Zuzarte as you said, founder and CMO of Equity Project For All, which is a brand and social impact, shop. We work with brands and help them really craft and strengthen their story, and incorporate social impact from the very beginning in terms of their purpose and in terms of their impact on their customers and their colleagues. I am excited to join this conversation and, really dive deep into the Metaverse Web3, and the future of marketing.

[00:03:16] Matt: Awesome, thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it, Raquel.

[00:03:21] Zuzarte: You’re welcome, I’m delighted to be here.

[00:03:23] Matt: All right, let’s dive in because I think the more I talk to people, and I think there’s just a lot of questions about what is Metaverse and what is Meta, you know, Facebook as a company, what are all these things?

I think we know that it’s VR but at what point is the Metaverse, Facebooks, and at what point is the metaverse by itself? Let’s start there, just some real basics of what are we talking about when we talk about the Metaverse?

[00:03:55] Zuzarte: So that is the, trillion dollar question , because no one really agrees on a set definition.

Let me take you back to 1996, when we were in the very, very early days of the internet, you know, people would use terms like, information super highway or cyberspace, and we would surf, you know, those were terms in the, in the very pioneering days of an entirely new technology, that’s certainly, we can say, transform the world and think of us as being in that 1996 phase right now.

There is no set definition, and the definition actually varies depending on who you’re asking. So if you ask Satya Nadella, who is the CEO of Microsoft, it’s a lot more about the enterprise connectivity and spaces that they’ve created for their employees. If you talk to Zuckerberg, you know, it’s around sort of the virtual reality and the use of the headset.

if you talk to Snap, which is very much around the augmented reality, technology, you know, you, get that. So today, I would say the definition of the Metaverse is evolving and it’s also very much a spectrum. And a spectrum can go from you know, augmented reality.

And some even say sort of before reality in terms of actually taking information and, visuals out of the reality view that you’re getting, and there are some technology that does that to augmenting it, which is only through the use of your smartphone to, you know, going to a more for virtual reality and then a, you know, virtual world’s, experience, which is horizon worlds sandbox, decentral line, et cetera.

So, when anyone asks you what the definition is, you must know that it is constantly evolving and we as architects in the ecosystem have an opportunity to shape it. There are a couple of things though that, you know, people will agree, the metaverse does contain.

It is about space, it’s about spatial, you know, bridging the gap between physical and digital. And it’s really about manifesting in a look photorealistic space, a world that you don’t look at, but you are inside of, so you actually live inside, your screen or your a big, television set, whatever you’re using to play your Roblox or your Fortnite, you inside.

The other element that’s constant, it’s bandwidth rich. So you know, it requires a robust infrastructure, you know, really high bandwidth, low latency, you know, to allow for the seamless experience and connections. and you don’t notice any delays. You know, the other big element is that, there’s multiple ways to access it.

You know, obviously we have the Oculus Metaquest 2, we have a hype, we have, your smartphones, you know, it could be strapped to your head, it be connecting, you know, the physical and digital experience together, and they’re gonna become more integrated in our lives. And we know that the work is being done on, goggles, on glasses, and even contact lenses that are going to have chips inside of that to sort of really immerse you in, into the world.

The last element that’s constant through the definitions is that it’s collaborative is, you know, it’s about, you know, ensuring that we create tools that are democratic that require low or no code, to be really a foundational element of the metaverse so we have more and more people being part of it.

So, think of it as a canvas for creativity, for imagination, and for allowing us to create environments that are inclusive, democratic, and most important, all that can also translate those qualities back into the real world. So it’s an exciting, world of, new tools and new opportunities to be truly transformative.

[00:07:23] Matt: That’s amazing, I love that definition and, the features that you pointed out there, because I think for the most part, and this is just from conversations and listening to, let me see, non-marketing people. It’s one thing I always try to do is talk to people who, aren’t immersed like we are in the technology, in the marketing and trying to find out what, what are your perceptions of it?

and I would say one of the biggest perceptions is that it’s gaming. it’s a place to go play games and I don’t think there’s enough information coming out about what are the practical aspects, what problems are being solved through this? Because as you said, back in 96, when we started having the information superhighway, the worldwide web people were calling it, it was transcending barriers and speed.

I think up to that point, you know, we had fax machines and now, well, we had email before then, but now we had a lot of visual element to it, so It solved a lot of business processes. it also brought people closer to manufacturers, distributors, retailers, through e-commerce in being able to eliminate that physical space and, now we’re doing it digitally.

what are some of the practical things of the metaverse that maybe people aren’t hearing about that will, you know, kind of the same equivalence of the internet, make them realize, okay, now I’m starting to understand.

[00:08:52] Zuzarte: Yeah, I think that’s a really great question, Matt, and I think, you know, let me start by putting some perspective here.

you know, when we look at, you know, the number of, 5G enabled phones out there right now, it’s like around a hundred million, if we look at how many people have tried a VR or AR headset, it’s around 76 million, if we look at how many ha own any crypto, it’s 27 million, how many played roadblocks?

It’s about 12. And then, you know, in terms of the people who actually have gone out and bought, a Metaquest 2. It’s, you know, less than 10 million and just 4 million of those have engaged with NFTs, with the non fungible tokens. So why I’m giving you that is the perspective is that we are in a nascent stage here.

We haven’t received wide scale adoption, and as you said, gaming is the use case, that is predominantly where we are seeing the Metaverse being completely, being embraced. And that is generally 18 to 34 year old males, white males and it is something that, you know, we need to ask ourselves like how can this technology be used in other use cases that can make a difference.

On one opportunity we’ve seen actually is an enterprise level and in terms of enterprise collaboration, and, you know, horizon workspaces, for example, by meta, you know, I’m making inroads into that to create these, workspaces where people can have a virtual coffee, you know, meet with their fellow colleague in avatar form without legs as we know, but that’ll come, and, you know, have that conversation, and invite someone from the office in Islamabad or the office in Sao Paulo to join with them in a way that, you know is interactive, and different from the more two dimensional zoom that we’ve been used to, since the beginning of the pandemic.

So I think workplace collaboration is an important use case that we’re gonna see more of as companies and enterprises look to invest. I think another, big opportunity is the use case around brand experiences.

We are moving, in the world of marketing from, reality where brands would invest a lot of money on that 32nd spot, you know, create an environment and hope people come. Instead, what we’re seeing is one more brands, and we can see that with the Wendy verse and what Wendy’s have done in other brands.

They’re creating experiences and inviting fans, their consumers now become fans to then become the creators. So instead of brands being the creators and saying Build it, then they will come. They’re saying, I will create a playground for my biggest fans to come in and let them create. And I will trust that in their interpretation and understanding of the brands, qualities and the brands promise that they will create something that is gonna be much more authentic than something I could ever make myself.

And we’re, seeing that, you know, through a number of different brands, McDonald’s have, have done it as well, and so have so many of the other brands within the P&G portfolio where they are inviting, you know, fans to make the story come to life. So I think, you know, both from the enterprise level and, sort of brand marketing perspective, that’s a big opportunity.

And then with that comes a commerce opportunity, so Metaverse Commerce, where you’re creating these experiences and as brands come in, everything from the Travis Scott, concert we saw, and every other ways that people can come in and, experience something and say, wow, that looks interesting.

Perhaps I shall, you know, purchase that, Balenciaga sweater or, that handbag or whatever that part of the experience is. So I think those are some of the ways we’re gonna see it come to life. And lastly, in an area that you are very passionate about around education, is also another use case where you can, you know, get, large teams together from across the world and learn together and have a more visceral experience when it comes to, whether it’s digital marketing you’re learning, or about new nursing techniques, or if you’re a surgeon and the healthcare environment, you know, really being able to, have that multisensory experience.

From visual sound, and in the future, who knows, taste, and other, other senses that can really help us be better at our professions and at our jobs. So there are some of the ways that I believe, you know, this can be used effectively for good and for


[00:13:01] Matt: Yeah, it’s, very interesting to your point, on the education, giving a lecture in VR was very interesting because, and, you know, my regular dear listeners, you know how I rant about, teaching on Zoom when people had their cameras off.

But when I was in VR, you’re seeing all the avatars and everyone, now we had legs, Raquel.

[00:13:30] Zuzarte: That’s good.

[00:13:30] Matt: Yeah, they were legs. So, it was a bit more realistic, but it was like being in an actual hall, seeing people, it was funny, there was a copy station in the back people, but all the attention was there and my slides were behind me and it was a wild experience because yes, with Zoom it’s two dimensional and you know, some cameras are on, some cameras are off. Here, if you’re wearing the headset you’re in and you can see where people are looking, It was very similar to real life. I say, wasn’t quite there, but it was, so much more immersive than that two dimensional Zoom.

And it really was, at that moment it was very much I could see how this could work. I could see now how this is much more immersive, and even as a speaker, it really did mimic that, in person feel, of having that. Now I can’t wait till I don’t have to wear a three pound headset, in order to do that, because that was really distracting and I think the most I could, I went for was about five minutes just to get a sense of what was going on, and then the next speakers came.

but that was a, definite experience that helped me realize what was happening here, and then also knowing that the audience was from all over the world. It was really amazing, to come together like that and then people could talk, mingle, and unlike Zoom, where you might have 50 or 100 people on Zoom, people could walk up to one another and have a one-on-one conversation and then walk around the room to go to somebody else and talk. It was absolutely amazing to see that happen.

[00:15:19] Zuzarte: Yeah, I can imagine it’s, completely transparent on how, engaged you know, your audience is, there’s no hiding, right? , with Zoom, we can, right, we can just switch off our, videos or even beyond and still not comment, but here it’s so much more closer, although, of course never can replace IRL, but closer to that experience where you can interact, look at people’s reactions, you know, comment on that.

And I think that is something that. more and more we’re gonna see, I mean, you know, if you think about some of the worlds that have been created, like Gucci and the work they did with Roblox, you know, where they created the Gucci Garden , where you had, you know, all the avatars and create an experience of physical experience where you could actually purchase the digital clothing, for example, for limited time.

And they created scarcity and this FOMO, fear of missing out, sentiment. It ended up being, you know, one of the top five of all the, experiences that was created and they engaged apparently over 30% of the visitors in that experience were 17 plus age group, and that’s a tough crowd to, engage and keep engaged.

So I think there’s this entire frontier of new experiences that, this technology could allow us. And I think the key thing I wanna comment on is it, it’s about being smart about how to deploy it. there’s a lot of, digital new toy obsession that we have in our industry.

And I think when you look at the Metaverse, you need to kind of think about, you know, what are the experiences that have human value? Period, whether it’s no Metaverse or in real life, and how do I take that aspect of that human value and create it in the Metaverse in a way that’s smart, in a way that where I’m investing, you know, test and learn approach, getting learnings and then scaling , in a way that allows me to bring in my influencers in an authentic way.

and it allows me to keep building but be smart. you know, I think it’s important not to rush in without doing your homework and understanding that human value, human truth that you’re trying to create.

[00:17:24] Matt: Absolutely, I’m trying to think what car manufacturer it was, but I saw that they were building a factory, in the Metaverse and all of their engineers from around the world were contributing to how this factory should be built. And what they were looking for was a, more optimized process in the manufacturing, they were also testing new systems, and I thought like, now this, now we’re getting into the operational side and people can come together and innovate, on things like this and that has long lasting implications.

I’m not so much from the marketing standpoint, but from a innovation, an operational standpoint, my goodness, what this can do, when you have your best minds able to work in a single place and, you know, have the annotations of what people have done, and through that, and that’s, I think one of the things that is absolutely amazing to think about is everything you do, is recorded.

Everywhere you look, everything you touch, there’s going to be a digital record of it. and so you’ve got all of these, you’re gonna have a record of who’s doing what, going through there for good or for bad.

[00:18:42] Zuzarte: Yeah. No, no, I, I think that’s true because it’s all built on the blockchain, right? And if we think about, you know, what the blockchain is, it’s a system of really recording information in a way that makes it difficult or really impossible to change, hack or cheat. And so it’s like a digital ledger of transactions and it’s duplicated, distributed, cross an entire network of, computer systems.

And so you’re right, you know, it’s gonna be hard, to not have a record of it. And you know, when you’re talking about the automotive industry, I think about Hyundai and the work they did, they unveiled at CS, the work they did on meta mobility, where they kind of showed how, you know, robots you know, could have capabilities, to, you know, transform and create new cars and vehicles of the future.

And they were very inclusive in their execution of, included people with, disabilities as well in terms of, you know, telling the story of how this theme park that they created the, you know, Hyundai Mobility Adventure, if you like, on roadblocks, you know, where users, you know, can get familiar with their cars and, you know, the future mobility solutions in a way that invited everybody in.

So I think that’s, the aspects of this new technology that’s exciting, that it can be inclusive, democratic, and importantly accountable. from the sense of the blockchain, there’s no oversight of any regulatory body as we know, in any of this, including crypto, which is one of the big issues, but I think that will change over time.

[00:20:08] Matt: What’s being done to increase the access? you know, I’m gonna keep going back because it was a great, example you gave of the early days of the internet, you needed a PC. And, PC and access online, so there was a financial barrier for many people to, number one, have the system and number two, have pay for the access, whether it was broadband or whether it was,, Internet Cafe or something like that.

Now that we’re kind of going through this again, is there a better awareness of how can we make this more accessible financially if we want to be truly inclusive around the world, how do we include these communities that typically have been, you know, lagged behind in connectivity or in access?

[00:20:59] Zuzarte: That’s, a really important question that many, architects, you know, within the technology field as well as in the world of marketing, are asking ourselves because the, cost of entry is high.

today, MetaQuest, first of all, went up in price. It’s now, about $400 for MetaQuests 2. The new pro is around the $1,500 mark, and, you know, you’ve gotta ask yourself, how many people, as I said earlier, it’s like, you know, very low numbers in terms of ownership.

So what I believe is gonna happen is that we are going to essentially use the device that we all have, which is the smartphone. and the entryway into these experiences is going to be through augmented reality coz AR is much more accessible. It is also, an opportunity to have that versatility of that experience, in your home life, in your work life, in the community.

And I believe that we’re going to see more and more, influencers, designers, technologists, you know, think about, how to make AR really an effective way to connect for commerce, continue with gaming, and we saw that with Pokemon, you know, early on, to learn, for our learning and to create.

So I think the, you know, the use cases will continue and I think through that we are going to then get an experience. Of course, it’s a different experience to wearing that headset and, you know, being a hundred percent in Horizon Worlds, for example, or playing Beat Saber, for those of you who love that, which I’m a little obsessed with right now, you know, it’s different.

But it has many of the qualities that we talked about in terms of, bringing to life a little bit of that spatial experience, needing that bandwidth, being able to connect with other, gamers or with other learners if you’re in a learning environment, and so I think that is the way we’re gonna get to it.

Now, eventually the cost of those headsets will have to come down, they’ll have to get, less complicated to, in terms of the experience of, wearing, you said a three pound device, you know, across your eyes and moving around is not the easiest, we had someone from the Wall Street Journal actually wear it for 24 hours recently, and, you know, look at what that experience was like. oh, and, it is a barrier. So I think that the technology is going to get lighter, cheaper, more accessible over time. But in the meantime, we’re going to really, experience the, the power of AR and, potentially the power of extended reality and mixed reality, to get to that point, and how it will sequence its way into full immersive, a hundred percent virtuality is gonna depend on, us, the consumers. What are we ready for? What are we willing to pay for?

[00:23:44] Promo Break: Hey everyone, this is Matt and thanks for listening.

Just a quick break in the middle of the podcast here to let you know there’s a couple ways that you can connect with us. The first is That’s the learning site where you can see courses on analytics, courses on digital marketing across paid search SEO multiple disciplines. And then also you can connect with us on Slack. Go to Slack if you’re there and look for us at Endless Coffee Connect with us. I’d love to hear from you, hear what ails you in the realm of digital marketing. Are there courses you need information that you’d like to hear, or maybe some past guests that you’d like to hear more from? Thanks again for being a listener of the Endless Coffee Cup, and I look forward to hearing from you.

[00:24:45] Matt: Yeah, I love the AR applications and I know that’s one thing that Microsoft has gone solidly behind on the AR but mainly, and I think the number one reason they gave is the accessibility, that VR naturally closes off, a lot of disabilities or anything like that, whereas AR tends to be much more inclusive physically, and so I know with the HoloLens, that’s where their direction is going here, but we all know that Zuckerberg and Meta are pouring massive amounts of money into this.

[00:25:20] Zuzarte: Yeah, I believe like 10 billion.

[00:25:21] Matt: Right!

[00:25:21] Zuzarte: Just 10 billion.

[00:25:23] Matt: But yet their stock is going down. So what, and maybe I’m putting you on a spot. Why are they investing so much and yet the market is losing so much confidence?

[00:25:35] Zuzarte: You know, it’s about timing, I think in a lot of what we see here, and if we think back to, you know, the first, reference to the term metaverse, you know, it was back in 1992 in the novel, Snow Crash.

At the time, you know, it was actually describing a dystopian world, you know, where you are surrounded by all these avatars and, you know, perhaps the hierarchy of power was not exactly what you would want it to be. so I think that, you know, there is a need for us to think about, you know, where consumers are at right now in terms of what they’re doing in terms of, social media usage and, the power of what we’ve seen more and more of creators and influencers.

So there’s a need for, you know, Facebook to become meta, first of all, as a rebranding exercise to move away from all the, challenges they’ve had and to really enter this space, which I think Zuckerberg really believes that this is going to be the next, you know, big technology change, just as we saw the internet in, you know, 1996, 97 in the early days, like this is going to be the next big, as we call it, Web3.

And so I think that’s the reason they’re investing in it. They’re investing in what they think is going to be the future basis of this technology. And if we look at the cycle for emerging technologies, it takes time for anything to really become more mainstream. What we’re seeing right now are what I’d call kind of the, really early pioneers, which is really the gamers, you know, adopting this technology. And what we’re gonna see is more and more of that than being seeping into other use cases like we talked about.

And so that is what they’re betting on, that this is going to become more mainstream, that consumers are going to want to be inside the experience, and be beyond like what we’ve seen right now.

And, you know, it’s been said, at least in, Matthew Ball. Another great Matthew like, who’s so expert, on the Metaverse, he says, you know, he believes like the economy for the Metaverse is gonna be, you know, larger than the economy in the physical world, and the question is like really like to what extent, and if you look at the numbers, you know, reports range from like 210 billion in 2021 to grow to about 730 billion in 2028 with a kager of 23%.

You know? And, and there’s a lot of companies besides Meta that are betting on this. Invidia, you’ve got of course Meta, Next Tech, Roblox Unity, Microsoft, Epic, Sandbox, Bite Dance, and the list goes on to Central end, Tencent. So there’s a lot of, companies that are betting on this, and the reason why perhaps we’re not seeing the results yet is because it’s early.

And there’s gonna be hiccups and it’s not gonna be a straight line, it’s not gonna be a straight line to growth. You’re gonna see depth, and you, and I know the recent numbers weren’t good at all in terms of, you know, Metaverse adoption, and it’s, because it’s still being defined.

So it’s really about making sure those of us who can define that journey of how that adoption’s gonna look and bet on the right side of, that technology in terms of ensuring it’s inclusive, ensuring that it’s democratic, ensuring that’s it’s accessible. I think solving for that is going to help us, you know, make it a success where it makes sense.

[00:28:51] Matt: Wow. Yeah, absolutely. It’s just amazing to watch, the confidence and it doesn’t seem to be so much in the Metaverse, it seems to be more in Meta’s approach, to what’s happening and, maybe at the neglect of other properties, where advertisers were more than happy to work and get their stuff on Facebook, but now they see maybe they’re not putting as much attention on Facebook and so a lot of these advertisers, I think, are losing a lot of confidence.

I wanna switch gears a little bit though, and I love to ask this question because especially you brought up, like in our industry, in the marketing industry, we love shiny things. What are the risks, that we face with Metaverse? What are some of the recognized, or maybe the unrecognized this could, we’re not sure, but what are some of the things that maybe we need to watch out for as this develops?

[00:29:48] Zuzarte: Yeah, that’s a really important question Matt that you ask because, when we get enamored with shiny toys in our, not only in our industry, but also generally when it comes to new technologies, we need to really ask ourselves like, what is the pros and cons of everything new that we’re introducing? So I think it really falls into two buckets.

The first bucket is really around, what I would call sort of governance and brand safety and human safety. one of the big risk is that there is no oversight, there is no body, that, you know, overlooks at the, the rules of the road, when it comes to the Metaverse or crypto, any of that, and we’ve seen people get burnt because of that.

And until we have, you know, some kind of, what I’d call, you know, standard operating process or, a governing body that can actually ensure that there is that governance and that brand safety and that financial safety, in some ways it’s very important.

So from a purely governance and safety aspect. But then there’s another part of this that I think that has not been talked about in the industry, and it’s about the human psychological impact. Now, when we look at what the social media technology has done, You know, since its inception, of course we have had, you know, people connect across the world and we have seen great, collaborative and human connection stories.

But we’ve seen the other side too. We’ve seen the big impact it’s had on mental health, we’ve seen the big impact it’s had on young teens when it comes to self-esteem. And the reports, you know, really unanimously talk about the damage that it has done. Now take that and amplify that in a situation where you are creating a virtual world where people can go in and not have to be themselves.

You know, I can be a beautiful legless peacock if I want, you know, I can be a leopard, I can be human or non-human and not actually be myself and although that has some pros in terms of imagination and being accepted for whoever you imagined to be, it’s not you. So one of the concerns I have is if we are going to be creating these imaginary worlds, eventually we’re gonna take those headsets off and we’re going to have to walk down the street and meet a real friend,

and interact in our schools and, you know, give a lecture, whatever the case may be, and ensuring that confidence levels that we got in that virtual world stays with us in real life.

Because I’m no longer that legless peacock or that leopard or whatever I’ve decided to be that day, I’m now Raquel Zuzarte myself.

And can I take that level of confidence, self-reliance and self-actualization I felt in, you know, Decentral Land or in, you know, Horizon Worlds and bring that to my real self, is the important question or is it going to make me really disconnected? and is it going to actually impact my mental health in a way that is not conducive?

And that is something that I, concern myself with because we do this, all of this to live better, healthier, and more productive lives. And it’s really important to sort of understand that mix between virtual reality, virtual lives and our real lives, and make sure what we’re learning, all the great things of the Metaverse, you know, being included, being able to have a voice gets translated into a real living as well.

So there’s sort of that, you know, governance aspect and there’s this human psychology aspect that we have to think about.

[00:33:23] Matt: Absolutely, and I think we could probably go a whole episode on the psychology aspect of what we’ve seen good and bad. And, you know, and this has been, I love to say it’s our, thought experiment for the past 15 years of giving people all this access with no instructions.

And, one of the things that I absolutely love, I think it was, the author you mentioned, and it became that movie Ready Player One, and so that’s what a lot of people think about Metaverse and it’s probably a very good representation. But what I thought was interesting about, the avatars that they all created, where idealized versions of themselves.

And I think that goes to your point where I can be whoever I want to be, so I’m going to curate an image, of who I want to be, who I aspire to be. And in reality, we’re doing that in social media, we are curating our images, whether it’s through photography, through video, through filters or whatever.

We are curating an image and now we can live that image. It will be very interesting to see what that does psychologically, and unfortunately, I think with, technology, technology’s moving so fast the same way with social media, we didn’t have any use cases, we don’t have any long term data, we don’t have any long term studies to see what this does to people and right now the only thing we have is social media, then we can try and apply this, but it’s so much more immersive. It’s going to be really interesting to see how that works out.

[00:34:58] Zuzarte: Yeah, I could not agree more, and I think we, you know, have a responsibility, with all the learnings we’ve had from social media now, you know, with social media, it was absolutely new.

We didn’t have any analogs, of right technologies in the past. Like we say, oh, we learned from this, I think As. An economy as a society, we need to think and say we have an opportunity to make Web3 not only more transformative in terms of commerce, in terms of experiences in gaming, but more transformative in terms of social impact and social progress.

Let’s build it in a way that takes these things into account. You know, let’s make sure if our kids are being exposed, you know, to these opportunities to learn that we amplify it with real life. You know, we always talk about amplifying with technology, it’s always been from real life, you know, amplify of tech, let’s amplify with real life because that’s where, you know, change happens.

And we have so many, key challenges that we face, you know, reflected by the sustainable development goals, the UN is issued out, you know, in 2015, we have to achieve these in the next seven years. 2030 is when we have to get to zero hunger, you know, completely averting the climate urgent crisis that we’re facing.

There’s so many issues we have to deal with, we need this to be an ally, we cannot have something being built that’s going to actually make, getting to these goals, these very important sustainable development goals and these very important urgent, you know, human needs that we have around not only quality, but but safety and survival and survival of our planet.

We need something that’s going to help us build it to be a better future world and not something that’s gonna make us have to go backwards, in our quest for that shiny toy.

[00:36:52] Matt: Right. Absolutely. so I’m gonna lighten it up a little bit, but thank you so much, I think, we could really dive into that, for quite a while.

I’m gonna lighten it up a little bit and ask what lessons have been learned from Second Life? That,

[00:37:06] Zuzarte: Oh my goodness.

[00:37:08] Matt: That are being applied to the Metaverse.

[00:37:11] Zuzarte: That is a great question. You know, Second Life made a huge, sort of big entry into the world, was it like 20 years ago? you know,

[00:37:19] Matt: Almost, I think it was, 06 to 08 around there. I think.

[00:37:25] Zuzarte: Yeah, I mean, it is something that did, you know, it has been around for a while and, it did not, take off because I guess there wasn’t, something that people felt was useful at the time.

[00:37:38] Matt: Which is funny, because there were a lot of brands there.

[00:37:42] Zuzarte: Right, exactly. and you know, today they have like, apparently only about 40,000 concurrent users. And it was supposed to be that you know, transformative point, where it was going to really, change the way that we related to each other.

And it was actually created, I just looked it up real quick here. 2003, Matt, So…

[00:38:01] Matt: Oh, wow.

[00:38:02] Zuzarte: It is like, next year will be 20 years. And so, there hasn’t been that adoption, and I think a lot of it is because I think that the timing of, its existence and also, Its use cases around gaming perhaps was not as sophisticated as what we have today.

And so there’s like a lot of, ways that we can look at that because remember, it was not created as a game, it was more created as a place where you can role play, go to different worlds, you know, go to clubs, even have jobs, and instead of have really a second life, another life.

[00:38:33] Matt: Right, yes.

[00:38:34] Zuzarte: And I don’t think, that it had, you know, I guess the technology heft or the technology underpinnings to make it, you know, as interesting and realistic to what we have today. And so there are, I think, a lot of learnings from that in terms of, timing, in terms of, you know, how it was promoted. and in particular, like, you know, who had access to it.

And with that you didn’t need a headset, right? It was just through your computer. and so those are, you know, those are a lot of things that, we can look at. I think that’s a really good point that you raise in terms of like, what can we learn, from that, but as I said, it’s only about 40,000 concurrent users right now, and it’s not, I don’t believe it’s built on the blockchain, but that is like another big aspect so we should look at it and see like why it didn’t succeed. And perhaps I do believe it’s the timing and its value proposition was not compelling.

[00:39:24] Matt: Yeah. I think technology, was yeah, you’re not looking at it through, I think some people had some rudimentary type of, headset, but yeah, the technology, the timing. I think another thing that, scared people off of that, and I think, kind of seeing a little bit is, the adult nature of Second Life. There was, I would say no rules.

And so a lot of the avatars people had and some of the things like that, you know, I don’t think a brand would ever want to align themselves with that. So how are, you know, how do we not bring those adult elements into the Metaverse? That second life kind of became known for? How do we protect children?

How do we protect people, from this type of behavior or these types of avatars or anything like that, that could, you know, make this not a safe place.

[00:40:22] Zuzarte: That’s a great question because we do know that, OkCupid, Tinder and others have looked at the Metaverse as a great platform, you know, to further engage.

[00:40:33] Matt: Oh, No.

[00:40:33] Zuzarte: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, they’re certainly, you know, looking at it as an opportunity to further engage their customer base. And, I think, you know, we have to think about the very questions we ask ourselves today. You know, how do we protect our children from going into, either, you know, websites that are really meant for adult content only, and, you know, what are the going to be the gatekeepers to protect that?

And I don’t think anyone’s written the rule book on that yet. So, we have also, you know, opportunities for kids to be whoever they wanna be, right? So you could be 50 years old even though you’re 16 and, you know, make your way into worlds that are not meant for your age. So I think that is something that, you know, really has to be, regulated and really a lot of thinking has to, and responsibility has to be taken in terms of creating something that’s gonna be safe, for young people and, and safe for other people of vulnerability.

You know, people with disabilities, you know, people from disadvantaged, parts of society. I think, you know, a lot of this has to come into play and, I believe having that governance is gonna be critical. I mean, social media really didn’t and see what’s happened.

[00:41:50] Matt: Yeah, exactly. So Raquel, we’re getting close to the end of our time here, I can’t believe how quickly it has gone, but let’s talk a little bit about, you know, some of the things that you’ve been working on. You are part of the CMO council, like you said, you were just at the ANA conference. What are some of the things in the world of marketing that are, you know, that you’re bringing up in the CMO council?

[00:42:15] Zuzarte: Yeah, there’s a lot happening in the world of marketing, and I think one of the biggest headlines is really looking at the role of marketing in the C-suite, in the boardroom in corporations as a transformational, point of change and growth, and how CMOs can really be seen as the architects of growth alongside the CFO alongside the Chief operating officer, and really understand how the power of marketing, storytelling, brand creative technology data coming together, can drive, you know, really strong sustainable jobs and do it with purpose.

Now, we’ve heard a lot about purpose, in the last few years. We have also seen CEOs who did not deliver on the growth targets, but perhaps because they were, you know, overly focused on sustainability or purpose, we’re penalized for that. And what we’re seeing now is the need to understand that it is not a tyranny of the or, as Jim Collins would say, it is actually the genius of the end.

So really how do you drive for that growth and for that purpose in terms of what the company stands for in terms of what the brands stand for, and creating that growth. And as part of that, the Association of National Advertisers, the ANA has, you know, taken really a bold agenda approach to this and created the CMO Growth Councils that have a very specific agenda around the themes of brand and creativity, you know, media, technology and data around society and sustainability, and very importantly around talent.

We have a talent opportunity to attract some of the brightest, most creative, the most technologically minded young graduates from across the world to be part of this industry because it is really the industry that brings the art and science together of making change happen, through stories, through not just advertising, but through great product development.

You know, through, you know, great innovations. And so I am part of the talent, working group within the CMO council looking at what are the capabilities, competencies, and skill sets and, characteristics of the marketers of the future. So, you know, identifying it and really looking at it through two quadrants, one around technical quotient.

So what is, critical from a technical perspective that you need to have your data, analytical skills, your technology skills, your marketing skills. And then we look at it also from a perspective of human quotient. So as a person, you know, what are your cognitive chops, for example, how you think, you know, how you relate to people, in terms of people skills, how you lead, how you show up.

So, those human and technical quotient capabilities are things that we are putting in a systematic way to be able to then say, this is what we’re, looking for in future leaders, and this is how we need to educate and empower our young, potential leaders, future CMOs, future CEOs at high schools around the world, at universities around the world, you know, to create this flywheel of opportunity and really to drive growth and redefine what we mean by not just profitability, which built in Friedman, of course made famous, but purposeful profitability, which is where we need to get to, to be able to cha achieve that genius of the end, the end of good growth, and what’s good for the company, good for the society, and, you know, good for, for the humans that we care for.

[00:46:01] Matt: Awesome. I love the emphasis on education and the marketers of the future. Absolutely, that is so critical. And I believe it was LinkedIn, I’m trying to think someone else has said that even just the digital marketing industry will double in the next five years, which is absolutely amazing. The opportunity for this next generation in marketing, in digital marketing and all of these aspects, is absolutely wide open.

Even for those that are just in it now, in a few years, a, as you said, you’re going to be the CMOs, you’re gonna be the managers, the directors, the VPs, and so, what’s that going to look like? So that’s exciting to hear about that and I actually look forward to talking with you more about that as well.

that is absolutely amazing. Raquel, thank you so much for your time today. It has been so valuable and I’ve learned a lot. I’m sure the listeners have as well, if they would like to learn more about you and I know you have a podcast as well. So please let us know how can we get in touch with you? How can we learn more about what you’re doing?

[00:47:16] Zuzarte: Wow. Thank you so much Matt. It’s been a real fun conversation this morning. Thank you for the opportunity to be part of your podcast. You can reach me on LinkedIn, also you can visit, which is our agency, working across brand strategy and social impact.

You can also check out while you’re on LinkedIn, the Storytelling Revolution, which is our podcast and video show interviewing architects of stories of the future. and I look forward to, hearing from everyone out there and your ideas, coz we have to build this future together and we have to, learn from what we have seen in the past and it’ll make it brighter, richer, more inclusive, and more transformative than ever before.

[00:48:00] Matt: Awesome. Thank you so much, Raquel. This has been such a great, great conversation. I think we’ll have time here soon, we could just have a cup of coffee in real life, and we’ll just let the conversation go where it will, but thank you so much for your time today.

You’re very welcome, thank you Matt.

All right dear listener, that’s it for another episode of the Endless Coffee Cup. I look forward to having coffee and conversation with you at the next episode of the Endless Coffee Cup.