[00:00:00] Dave Delaney: One, like, exercise I love doing is just using tons of Post-it Notes…
[00:00:10] Matt Bailey: Yeah.
[00:00:10] Dave Delaney: …on my whiteboard. And there’s different people that I’ve seen, like I, Pam Slim, uh, who’s great and has some wonderful books as well, she has a great process you can find on YouTube about storyboarding, like for a book, for example, and writing up the steps that you need to do on Post-it Notes and then rearranging them based on a, on a graph sort of timeline of when you need to have these chapters done and what’s going to be in each chapter and things like that.
Another great example is Michael and Amy Port who run a great organization called Heroic Public Speaking who train people how to speak more effectively and I’ve worked with them and I’m friends with them. But they also have a really, Amy has a great process of story, of creating, write, creating a presentation by like thinking, brainstorming stories and writing them out on Post-it Notes and rearranging them on the board.
[00:00:59] Bumper Intro-Outro: Welcome to Endless Coffee Cup, a regular discussion of marketing news, culture, and media for our complex digital lifestyle. Join Matt Bailey as he engages in conversation to find insights beyond the latest headlines and deeper understanding for those involved in marketing. Grab a cup of coffee, have a seat, and thanks for joining.
[00:01:20] Matt Bailey: Well, hello, dear listener, and welcome to another episode of the Endless Coffee Cup podcast, and to continue our exploration of just different people in different areas of marketing and communication, I’ve got another MPN Network or, well, it is the MPN Network Network, Marketing Podcast Network…
[00:01:42] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:01:42] Matt Bailey: …guest, Dave Delaney. Dave, you’re part of the Marketing Podcast Network and it’s great to have you here. Dave’s from FutureForth and, and Dave, could you give us just a, a, kind of a quick introduction and what do you do?
[00:01:54] Dave Delaney: Yeah, thanks for having me, it’s uh, it’s great. And actually, yes, I had you on my show, the Nice podcast, as well. So, folks can find that at nicepodcast.co, so I’ve been doing that for a little while. I’ve been, yeah, I actually started podcasting back in ’05 so I’ve been…
[00:02:09] Matt Bailey: Yep.
[00:02:09] Dave Delaney: …been having, doing podcasting for a little while now. But, uh, my company FutureForth focuses on serving fast growing technology companies, and we teach leaders and teams there how to communicate more effectively, how to collaborate better to build better cultures, and then ultimately to retain talent because there are huge costs involved when folks abandon ship. And so, trying to, to keep people from doing is a key part of what I do, as well, and I do that all at FutureForth.
[00:02:38] Matt Bailey: Great. Well, you, you know, we, I had been on your podcast I think a couple…
[00:02:42] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:02:42] Matt Bailey: …months ago and yeah, we, we share a history going back, man, back into the 80’s when it comes to this digital world and getting fascinated with it. What was it that, that started you in, you, you know, that one thing that just sort of opened your eyes and made you say that, “This is where I want to spend my time. This is, this is, this is my future.”
[00:03:03] Dave Delaney: Yeah. So, technology has always been that sweet spot, but it’s all about, you know, I was an early adopter in a lot of technology, a lot of social networks and, and all of that. But it was, it was a lot of soul searching when I realized that it’s not so much about technology for me as it is about communication and using technology to communicate more effectively.
And, and this goes, I mean, for me, and, and I believe on our conversation we kind of geeked out about some of the early days because, yeah, for me it started with like CB radios and from there it went to running a BBS or, or contacting BBSes on my Commodore 64 with a TRS-80 between those two.
[00:03:41] Matt Bailey: Oh yeah, yeah. Absolutely.
[00:03:42] Dave Delaney: Um, yeah. But yeah, and I ran a BBS as well, back in the 80’s and, and the fact that I was able to communicate with somebody, and for your listeners who are not familiar, uh, BBS stands for bulletin board system and it’s, sort of predates the internet as a way that we…
[00:04:00] Matt Bailey: Right.
[00:04:00] Dave Delaney: …can connect from computer to computer and be able to live chat with each other in sysop mode as the kids used to say, who are now very old. They are no longer kids. Long, long past that.
[00:04:13] Matt Bailey: Oh…
[00:04:14] Dave Delaney: Um, but so, my and my, my whole career has been around marketing and communications and, and really, it all kind of came to a head realizing that this is my sweet spot, and this is how I serve people. So, I’m a public speaker. I do a lot of keynote presentations and training through workshops and, and yeah, I absolutely love what I do.
[00:04:36] Matt Bailey: So, what is it, you, you specifically say that you’re going after fast growing tech companies. What is it about that kind of company that makes you want to focus in, in that area?
[00:04:49] Dave Delaney: Well, the cost to replace talent, first of all, for technology companies is even much higher than it is on average. So, the Society for Human Resources Management, SHRM, have a calculation that it works out to roughly six to nine months the salary of an employee to replace that person when they leave. And so, we actually built a calculator at futureforth.com if you want to check it out. You could pop in a salary, and it will show you approximately how much it will cost to replace that person if they leave.
[00:05:16] Matt Bailey: Wow.
[00:05:16] Dave Delaney: And it’s free, it’s just on the site there. But it’s always interesting to crunch the numbers and see like a $60,000 employee will cost between $30,000 to $45,000 to replace and retrain and rehire. And these costs are, are even higher for technology companies. Now, my background, because I’ve worked in tech most of my career, I have an affinity for the industry. I know what it’s like. I’ve worked for SaaS companies, I’ve worked for hardware companies, and I’ve had plenty of technology clients as well.
So, I know firsthand what it’s like on the inside. And I know what it’s like to work for great bosses, and I know what it’s like to work for not so great bosses. And so, you know, while I do work with other types of companies that are not technology necessarily, my focus is, is really serving technology type companies.
[00:06:05] Matt Bailey: That’s cool. Yeah. Well, and that, yeah, I think coming up in those kinds of companies and, you know, I, I was kind of on the agency technology side and yeah, you come out of that and like with this list in your head, like, “I, if I ever have a company, I’m never going to do that.” It’s almost like the parent thing, like, “When I’m a parent…”
[00:06:24] Dave Delaney: Right.
[00:06:24] Matt Bailey: “…I’m never going to do that.” But you get this…
[00:06:26] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:06:26] Matt Bailey: …list about, and, and that’s one thing I think great bosses enable in you is you see the time they spend, they invest, and they make you better.
[00:06:37] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:06:37] Matt Bailey: And, and they really inspire you to do better and, and, you know, I think back to one of my early bosses who was really a mentor in, you know, we were in real estate, but he taught me more about people and sales and working with people and it, and it wasn’t, you know, the sales pitch. It was just being genuine and listening.
[00:06:59] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:06:59] Matt Bailey: And, you know, and I, we still go out to coffee every once in a while because he made such an impact in my life and, and made me see, “Okay, I can, I can do this.”
[00:07:09] Dave Delaney: Yeah. That’s it. I mean, it’s really, you know, whether you’re a B2B or a B2C type of company, or whether you’re just like a, like a SaaS company who, who are not dealing with their clients firsthand in person necessarily, at the end of the day, you’re dealing with humans, uh, you know, to your point. And so, the way we treat our customers, our, our prospects, our, our staff, you know, is, is crucial. And this is how the Nice Methodology was, was, you know, how I created that Nice Method framework in order to, to help improve this with organizations.
[00:07:42] Matt Bailey: Alright. You mentioned it. So, what is the Nice Method? I, I love it because, you know, you’ve named the podcast…
[00:07:49] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:07:49] Matt Bailey: …you, you go into that, but what is the Nice Method?
[00:07:52] Dave Delaney: So, there’s three tiers to the Nice Method. The first is to hear your team. So, and I go through exercises and trainings on how to better hear your team, getting everybody on board to listen to one another, to provide feedback and recognition. There’s a stat from SHRM also that 45% of new hires within the first, only 45% of new hires within the first 30 days feel any kind of value.
So, people leave because they don’t get recognized and, and long-term staff don’t get recognized for their good work. So, I have some strategies and ways that I teach leaders and teams to, to recognize the people. And so, this all gets into hearing your team, communicating more effectively, actively listening with intent. So, that’s hearing your team.
The second is avoiding the wrecks and the wrecks are caused by poor communication. And so, with avoiding the wrecks, it’s also, these wrecks are also caused by fear. Fear of management, fear to speak up because you don’t feel empowered, or you’re scared to speak up in your organization. And then bad things happen as a result because you’re not speaking up ’cause you don’t feel empowered enough to do that or trust, as well. So, avoiding the wrecks is important.
And then the third tier is life outside the walls. And what I mean by that is finding ways to bring your team together to build genuine relationships. You know, we’re far less likely to quit a job in the first place when we have friends at work. And so, finding ways to bring your team members together both inside the walls and outside of the walls but, so, it’s about, it’s about relationships, it’s about trust, and it’s also about finding ways to use your company and your team to support your local community and to support the world in different causes, in different ways.
And this kind of, it, it takes you away from the grind, from the nine to five or eight to six or whatever hours you’re working and has your team kind of come together to do things like school backpack programs where you’re, you’re feeding and you’re, you’re stuffing school backpacks with, with back to school supplies for, for needy kids, or you’re working at a food bank, or you’re doing, you know, meals on wheels, or there’s a lot of different opportunities, or using Kiva even, which is a great service, ways to bring your team together.
[00:10:00] And this gives you an opportunity to not only work together and, and support great causes, but you also get to know each other better. And when you start to get to know each other better, relationships are born that way. Other, otherwise it’s everybody staring at monitors, you know, with headphones on in a factory just knocking out whatever they’re knocking out. And so, you need to instill trust and relationships. And this is all part of the Nice Method.
[00:10:37] Matt Bailey: It, how difficult, you know, I, I love the method. I, I love how you’re going through that. How difficult is that now, when we’ve got teams working remotely, some from home, you, you know, we’re, we’re kind of right now in this, what does a return to office look like? Do we return to office? How…
[00:10:55] Dave Delaney: Yep.
[00:10:55] Matt Bailey: …how critical is it to, to take some of these steps?
[00:10:59] Dave Delaney: It is critical. If you are a fast-growing company and you want to retain your talent, you need to bring your team together. And it, it doesn’t necessarily mean that you are going to be a fully back to the office type of business, but I’m a big proponent of hybrid offices, hybrid models. The key thing with hybrid though, is you have to have your team in-house, uh, on the same days and times each week. It can’t be just come as you want.
[00:11:27] Matt Bailey: Right. Right.
[00:11:28] Dave Delaney: So, rather, you know, it might be a Tuesday through Thursday working or, or whatever it is or a Monday and Friday. But making sure that your staff are all working in-house at the same time. I’ve heard a lot of horror stories about people trying to get back to the office or introduce a hybrid model and they go, and there’s nobody there, but they’re all, they were all there yesterday. And so, you’re missing opportunities there.
So, yeah, and, and for those companies that are fully distributed, and I have clients who I’ve served who are like that, I encourage them to bring their team together in person even a couple of times a year, once a quarter, whether it’s an offsite or maybe a company retreat, um, and bringing your team together. I do a lot of workshops at retreats as well, where I’m hired to come and do a half day or two half days when the other halves are, you know, more for socializing and, and having some fun activities. I try to make it fun, as well…
[00:12:22] Matt Bailey: Yeah.
[00:12:22] Dave Delaney: …but, and, and the analogy I use with this when I get asked about this a lot is, is think of like a long distance relationship or romantic relationship, right? You, you can’t just exist long distance without seeing each other forever.
[00:12:38] Matt Bailey: Right.
[00:12:38] Dave Delaney: Chances are, it’s just not going to work long term. You have to come together and see each other in person. And the same with friends, too. I mean, you, I have friends in, you know, all over the world, but we do see each other once a year, you know, and we, and we stay in contact. There’s something to be said about physical touch, as well. Not in a calling the HR kind of way, but just, you know, not like that. Um, but just like a, a, like a high five or a handshake.
[00:13:05] Matt Bailey: Yes.
[00:13:06] Dave Delaney: Or a hug if it’s appropriate. Touch actually helps to instill trust and build these relationships with people and, and that’s what’s key, ’cause like, again, unless you’re some sort of factory business and you don’t care about retention, you, you do need to bring your team together and these relationships grow as a result.
[00:13:24] Matt Bailey: Absolutely. I mean, like you, I do workshops and, and training and, you know, I’ve had my fill of virtual and, and you can’t, you know, I’m, I’ll be the first to line up in the line that says, “It’s not the same.”
[00:13:38] Dave Delaney: Right.
[00:13:38] Matt Bailey: You don’t get the same interaction, you don’t build the same relationship. So, I was on-site yesterday doing a half day workshop. They’re broken up into teams of four and they’re working on a business problem. And what was so amazing, and, and this wouldn’t happen like in Zoom if they’re in their groups, because another group overhears what this group’s doing and one of those guys happens to understand the supply chain here, so he goes over and starts telling them, “Here’s the selling points of our supply chain…”
[00:14:12] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:14:13] Matt Bailey: …which gives them the data they need in order to, you know, build their presentation. And, and…
[00:14:18] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:14:19] Matt Bailey: …just to see that happen, that not only were most of the people in these groups of four didn’t really know each other that well, they hadn’t seen each other, I think about a third of the group was new since COVID. So, there was a lot of getting to know people, understanding the, the relationships and, and building there. It was just so much fun to watch…
[00:14:42] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:14:42] Matt Bailey: …and to be a part of. That’s not on Zoom. You cannot…
[00:14:46] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:14:46] Matt Bailey: …get that.
[00:14:47] Dave Delaney: Yeah. You don’t get the spontaneity on Zoom. You don’t get that serendipity that even happens, too.
[00:14:53] Matt Bailey: Right.
[00:14:53] Dave Delaney: Right?
[00:14:53] Matt Bailey: Right.
[00:14:53] Dave Delaney: These things, these moments that occur from just hearing, you know, to, in your example, like overhearing someone and being able to offer some, some feedback. You can’t do that if you’re not hearing everything and you’re not hearing everything if you’re staring at a, a webcam all day. Right? So, you miss out on that. I, I, I’ve been speaking at a lot of association and, and conferences where groups are coming together for the first time in, in years…
[00:15:19] Matt Bailey: Right.
[00:15:19] Dave Delaney: …literally…
[00:15:19] Matt Bailey: Right.
[00:15:19] Dave Delaney: …because of the pandemic. And it has been tons of fun because the energy is so high bringing…
[00:15:25] Matt Bailey: Yeah.
[00:15:25] Dave Delaney: …everybody back together. So, but I, yeah. And to your point about like, sort of, you know, a lot of, like, a lot of millennials now, you know, the studies are showing that millennials want to go to the office. They want to connect with their, with their colleagues and meet people. And part of it is this proximity bias that happens when…
[00:15:46] Matt Bailey: Yes.
[00:15:46] Dave Delaney: …you’re not there. The analogy, I wrote a, I wrote a, a blog post a, a little while ago called, “Smoking with the Boss.” And I was, there was a Friends episode, also dating myself, perhaps, but there was a Friends episode where Rachel, there was a new hire and, and the new hire, her, was getting all the best jobs from…
[00:16:06] Matt Bailey: Right.
[00:16:06] Dave Delaney: …her boss and she couldn’t figure out what was happening. And then she figured out what was happening was the boss and the new hire smoked. And so, they would go out on cigarette breaks and during that time the boss would, they would, you know, talk casually…
[00:16:21] Matt Bailey: They’d talk. Yeah.
[00:16:21] Dave Delaney: …get to know one another and the boss would give the new, the new hire all of the best jobs. And so, Rachel then pretended that she smokes in order to start hanging out with them and, uh, you know, comedy ensued.
But this proximity bias is a real thing. I mean, it’s really hard to get a promotion or to move up or, or into different divisions or do different things for your, the, the company you work for if people, if you’re not top of mind.
[00:16:47] Matt Bailey: Right.
[00:16:47] Dave Delaney: And it’s hard to be top of mind if you’re not there, if they don’t see you in the halls or at the water cooler or what have you.
[00:16:52] Matt Bailey: Absolutely. Absolutely. I, I had a previous podcast guest. She was a medical doctor and now she’s, you know, working with people, um, from the psychological standpoint. And, and she said that’s one of the biggest things we’re going to see, especially the younger millennials who don’t want to go back, you’re going to get overlooked. You’re going to get overlooked for promotions, overlooked for jobs, overlooked for work. And very interestingly in this training that I did yesterday, the CEO stopped in and kind of took over, you know, I’m not going to, eh sure, take over. And, and…
[00:17:24] Dave Delaney: Right.
[00:17:25] Matt Bailey: …what he said just reinforced so much of what we were talking about. Uh, and he said, you know, “We’ve got a building we’re paying for and…”
[00:17:35] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:17:35] Matt Bailey: “…no one’s in it.” He says, “But we’re heading into our best August ever. So, you, you know, what does this look like?” And, and he’s asking them, he says, “But I don’t want to just tell you to be here to be here.”
[00:17:50] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:17:50] Matt Bailey: “But I also want to know who my high performers are, I want to reward people who are, you know, not here from nine to five, but the ones that are productive, that are making things happen.” I thought that was a, a really self-aware statement to make to his team.
[00:18:06] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:18:06] Matt Bailey: That we’re not looking at it from, “We’re paying for this, so you got to be here.”
[00:18:11] Dave Delaney: Right. Right.
[00:18:12] Matt Bailey: He, he gave the personal, I think the personal reality of it that we…
[00:18:16] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:18:16] Matt Bailey: …need to know who we can depend on. That’s what…
[00:18:20] Dave Delaney: And the magic…
[00:18:21] Matt Bailey: …makes teamwork.
[00:18:22] Dave Delaney: Absolutely, yeah. And that, and that’s, that’s the magic of the hybrid model, right? Like assuming, assuming everybody’s on the same page and as I mentioned, having everybody under the same roof at the same time and, and days of the week so that that all can take place, but then also being mindful that maybe the workday starts later to help people, you know, depending where you live. I mean…
[00:18:45] Matt Bailey: Right.
[00:18:46] Dave Delaney: …I live in Nashville and Nashville is quickly getting to, to match Atlanta as far as like gridlock and, and bad traffic every day. That’s what we do when we don’t invest in public transportation, but I digress.
So, but my point here is that if we’re, you know, I understand firsthand, like, you know, when I was working for, for people, I’ve worked for myself for over a decade now, but when I was working for others, yeah, I mean, the idea of not having to go deal with traffic or, or dealing with, you know, as a, as a parent, you know, being able to, to be at my kids’ events and, and help, you know, help carpool or whatever it is, there’s ways around this all so that you can still have people in the office, but still have them to, to tend to their personal lives and not have to deal with traffic as so many do, so. So, there’s some good opportunities here, too.
[00:19:37] Matt Bailey: Yeah. Well, and, and I like the whole rethinking of, “How do we do this better?”
[00:19:41] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:19:41] Matt Bailey: Like you, I think the hybrid approach, especially for training, is essential. I, I think we need to leave the Zoom training and the virtual training behind. I am, I’m so ready to do that.
[00:19:54] Dave Delaney: It’s, it’s hard to know if your jokes bomb when you’re talking…
[00:19:57] Matt Bailey: Yeah.
[00:19:57] Dave Delaney: …on Zoom, I, when you’re the only one talking.
[00:20:00] Matt Bailey: It is. Well, and, and then, well, and I’ve talked about this before that the, when people don’t turn on their cameras and, and, and you probably get into this when, when whoever coordinated the training makes the introduction…
[00:20:15] Dave Delaney: Yes.
[00:20:16] Matt Bailey: …and if they turn off their camera, I know how it’s going to go.
[00:20:19] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:20:19] Matt Bailey: Everyone else is going to turn off their cameras. There’s going to be zero feedback. There’s not going to be hardly any interaction ’cause now maybe I have one or two, and, and throughout I’m telling people, “Turn on your cameras. I don’t…”
[00:20:31] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:20:32] Matt Bailey: “…you know, I know you’re doing your email. I’d be doing the same thing.” You, you know, just honestly…
[00:20:36] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:20:36] Matt Bailey: …I, when I’m on a webinar, yes, that’s what I’m doing.
[00:20:39] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:20:39] Matt Bailey: And it’s hard. But when you have a leader who introduces the content, “Here’s why we’re here. Here’s my goal for it.” And…
[00:20:47] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:20:47] Matt Bailey: …hands it over and their camera stays on, everyone else’s camera’s going to stay on. And so, that, that leadership, it creates a culture.
[00:20:56] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:20:57] Matt Bailey: And I’ve noticed that in different companies how many cameras are on, how many cameras are off, that reflects, really, I think the communication level of that company.
[00:21:08] Dave Delaney: I’ll give you three tips on the Zoom thing or Meet or Teams or whatever video conferencing service you’re using. The first is to turn off your view when conversing with someone on a webcam. So, block out, most platforms have the ability to close off “yourself view” as it’s called, so that you don’t see yourself. Because what we…
[00:21:32] Matt Bailey: Yeah.
[00:21:32] Dave Delaney: …end up doing is seeing if anything’s caught in our teeth as we’re talking. And, and truly as, as you’re conversing human to human, let’s say we’re conversing in a hallway in-person somewhere, or in a, wherever, you’re not holding a mirror for me to see myself.
[00:21:47] Matt Bailey: Right. Right.
[00:21:48] Dave Delaney: Right? So, there’s no reason why you should see yourself as you’re conversing. Maybe a quick webcam check to make sure your hair is in the right place or whatever it is, or you don’t have spinach in your teeth, but after that, closing out your camera view is a great way to build rapport. I will give you the second tip for those, if we are recording the video of this, the second tip here is this.
[00:22:13] Matt Bailey: Oh, yeah.
[00:22:14] Dave Delaney: So, what I, what I am showing you here, I have a Post-it Note above my webcam with a smiley face that I’ve drawn to remind me to smile.
[00:22:23] Matt Bailey: Yes. Yes.
[00:22:24] Dave Delaney: And I post that. I drew, I drew it upside down and posted it above my webcam so I’m staring at the smiley face. I studied radio and television broadcasting in my early days of school and in radio, a lot of radio stations, let’s say it’s a classic rock station. They would have pictures of avatars of their typical listeners. And they would pin those pictures above their microphone in the sound booth, so that when they were speaking in the microphone, they were looking at these photos of their potential, or their, their possible types of people that listen to them to remember how to speak and, and how, and, and what they’re saying. So, I keep my little Post-it Note smiley face there to remind me to smile.
[00:23:03] Matt Bailey: Right.
[00:23:04] Dave Delaney: The third tip is a big one. I am holding up a red compressed air can, and it is called Pet Corrector and I swear to God I should be working for these people at this point. They don’t know I exist, but I, I’ve told so many speakers, I, you know, I, I have a lot of speaker friends and of course podcasting comrades, as we are, too. What this is is if you have a noisy dog who likes to bark when somebody, the Amazon person comes to the door or somebody walks by the house, uh, our Mini Aussie, Peggy, just goes crazy when somebody walks past. This is a, a compressed air can, and you basically, you spray it in the air. You’re not spraying the dog.
[00:23:45] Matt Bailey: Interesting.
[00:23:45] Dave Delaney: You spray it in the air, and it makes this loud hiss sound.
[00:23:48] Matt Bailey: Right.
[00:23:49] Dave Delaney: And the dog goes *gasp*. It stops her dead in her tracks and she’s silent. So, what I do is I casually hit my mute button, hit the can, and then drop it back, back on and continue talking and Peggy’s there like frozen in, like, “What? What was that?” So…
[00:24:06] Matt Bailey: I’ve got to share that. I’ve got to share that. I know exactly who to share that with because…
[00:24:11] Dave Delaney: Three tips.
[00:24:11] Matt Bailey: Yes.
[00:24:12] Dave Delaney: Right there. Yes. Yes. Yes.
[00:24:13] Matt Bailey: I know someone who can use that third tip right now and, and change their calls.
[00:24:18] Dave Delaney: Tell the, tell the nice, tell the nice people at Pet Corrector that Dave Delaney sent them. So, that’s…
[00:24:22] Matt Bailey: Absolutely. That is so great.
[00:24:23] Dave Delaney: …that they can start cutting, cutting me a check.
[00:24:27] Matt Bailey: That’s great. You know, it, it, I think it’s something else we have in common, too, is like I did internships at both radio and TV stations.
[00:24:33] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:24:34] Matt Bailey: And even the guys on radio, he told me, I, “If you’re going to speak and, and you want that, you don’t want to be that monotone voice…”
[00:24:44] Dave Delaney: Right.
[00:24:44] Matt Bailey: “…you need to speak as if you’re on video. You need to speak…”
[00:24:48] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:24:48] Matt Bailey: “…as if, yeah. Like, you’ve got to smile. You’ve got to bring that emotion into your face.”
[00:24:53] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:24:53] Matt Bailey: “That’s the only way it will translate into your mouth.” I always thought that was interesting and then, you know, I kind of learned the up and down pattern of maintaining that audio interest as you…
[00:25:04] Dave Delaney: Right.
[00:25:05] Matt Bailey: …go through there, so.
[00:25:06] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:25:07] Matt Bailey: Cool things. I mean, there’s valuable things to pick up from these, these experiences. I like how you brought that in.
[00:25:13] Dave Delaney: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:25:15] Matt Bailey: One of the things I wanted to do is even, you know, we talked about hybrid work and yeah, for training, bringing a team together, but even just for, let’s say we’re going to do Tuesdays from ten to three. And what’s the, the value now, and, and you made the comment, too, about, you know, sitting there with your headphones on, that if we’re going to be in the office, and, and that’s one of the things that I absolutely love about the training is we’re doing an assignment together. We’re working on it.
[00:25:46] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:25:46] Matt Bailey: And one of the things, so, what I was training yesterday was how to make a data presentation. How to find an insight in the data, how to find a visual that fits, how to tell a story about this to engage a decision maker.
[00:26:01] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:26:01] Matt Bailey: And what I was stressing was this is not something you do alone for eight hours. That your presentation will be better when you bring in people who this affects. Get their input, but then also get their input on how the presentation runs. And so…
[00:26:18] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:26:18] Matt Bailey: …you get people from different departments, you get people with different understandings or experience, and you’re able to build something that collaboratively is…
[00:26:29] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:26:29] Matt Bailey: …a great presentation. And I, I think people have missed out on that value of working together collaboratively on a project in the same room, you know, for a day, rather than…
[00:26:44] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:26:44] Matt Bailey: …just, I, I, I don’t like that, that sitting there with headphones on. It, it, it’s, you might as well be home if that’s what we’re going to do when we’re in the office.
[00:26:54] Dave Delaney: Yeah. I mean, you raise a great point because, you know, when you are working in the office with colleagues, you can tap the shoulders of those physically or, or however, but you can set up meetings with those who have talents that are different than yours, right? And to the point that you made about, like, working with, within, within data, for example. So, as a keynote speaker, part of my job is to inform and entertain and empower audiences or, or companies who might, who, you know, I’m hired to do workshops or training for.
I saw a speaker many years ago who changed the way I spoke, you know, and it was a speaker named Garr Reynolds. And Garr has a Google talk, and you can find them on YouTube and things, but Garr wrote a great book called “Presentation Zen.” He’s an American who spent a lot of time living in Japan. And he started taking, um, the design methodologies of the Japanese, these traditional design methodologies where less is more…
[00:27:58] Matt Bailey: Yeah.
[00:27:59] Dave Delaney: …if you will. And what he would do was design his slides to present, to present complex or important data, important information, but depict it in a way that would, would clearly, you know, simplify that information and present it in an appealing way.
And so, you got me thinking about that because, so I do a keynote called the “ROI of Nice.” And in that presentation, I have, it’s a good example because I, I share a lot of statistics in it. And by the way, there’s a webcast, like, on demand version at futureforth.com where you can watch it if you want. But in that presentation, you can see the way I’ve designed these slides, I was very much inspired by the way that he does it.
Which, so for example, you mentioned like data points and things like, you know, if you’re, if you’re sharing like, you know, one in five, blah, blah, blah, it might be like, like a, a pebble in a hand as the image. And it’s the speaker who’s able to communicate that one in a, in five or whatever it may be in some really appealing visual ways to make it more impactful.
And so, getting back to your original point there, and what I’m trying to get at was that if you, if you, let’s say you’re a data person and you’re, you need to present some information around there and you’re in the office, why not talk to your creative director or one of the designers at your, uh, to help you visualize this content and say, “Hey, I’ve got these pretty heavy duty numbers I want to share, but I don’t want to, you know, I don’t want to put people to sleep or scare them off with like a big chart or something.”
[00:29:31] Matt Bailey: Right.
[00:29:31] Dave Delaney: You know?
[00:29:32] Matt Bailey: Right.
[00:29:32] Dave Delaney: “So, can you, can you help me with this?” And so, you’ve got these resources in-house who can help you with this. So, yeah, that’s another reason why working together that way can be beneficial.
[00:29:41] Matt Bailey: It is. And, and I always love it when a group does have someone with some graphic design chops because you know something’s going to happen.
[00:29:48] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:29:48] Matt Bailey: It was really interesting, too, that when they started and, and I make them work on easel pads. We’re not working on laptops because…
[00:29:55] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:29:56] Matt Bailey: …and maybe you’ve seen this, too, that when I have a group project, if everyone’s on a laptop, they don’t talk.
[00:30:00] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:30:02] Matt Bailey: If they’re gathered around a whiteboard or an easel, there’s more talking, there’s more going through, but also there is a value in iterations.
[00:30:12] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:30:12] Matt Bailey: And so, we got to a point, and I saw that everyone starts putting together a, a slide or a presentation, and they all went right back to that traditional marketing, “Here’s what happened.” And I made them all, you know, take it all down because you didn’t…
[00:30:28] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:30:28] Matt Bailey: …start with your ask.
[00:30:29] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:30:30] Matt Bailey: What are you asking for?
[00:30:31] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:30:31] Matt Bailey: And then you support that.
[00:30:35] Sponsor: Hey everyone, this is Matt, and thanks for listening. Just a quick break in the middle of the podcast here to let you know there’s a couple ways that you can connect with us. The first is learn.sitelogic.com. That’s the learning site where you can see courses on analytics, courses on digital marketing across paid search, SEO, multiple disciplines, and then also, you can connect with us on Slack.
Go to Slack if you’re there and look for us at endlesscoffeecup.slack.com. Connect with us. I’d love to hear from you, hear what ails you in the realm of digital marketing. Are there courses you need, information that you’d like to hear, or maybe some past guest that you’d like to hear more from? Thanks again for being a listener of the Endless Coffee Cup, and I look forward to hearing from you.
[00:31:31] Matt Bailey: So, you know, now we had to, now when they had to do that reiteration, that’s when the creativity came out. That’s when more…
[00:31:38] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:31:38] Matt Bailey: “Well, this is my ask. How do I present that?” And now it became a bit more visual, you know, more specific, we started working in more financial impact, but that, as a team being then forced to, “Okay, good start. Reiterate. Do it again.” Boy, that, I, I just noticed how much more it kind of bonded them, challenged, but it deepened those communication ties with each group to make that happen. What are…
[00:32:06] Dave Delaney: Yeah, I think…
[00:32:07] Matt Bailey: Go ahead.
[00:32:07] Dave Delaney: Yeah. Oh no, I was just going to say to your point, like, I think like getting analog is a, is a great thing to do, especially, you know, and we’re two technology folks who do a lot of that and, and spend a lot of time on computers, but going analog is so beneficial in a lot of ways. One, like exercise I love doing is just using tons of Post-it Notes…
[00:32:29] Matt Bailey: Yeah.
[00:32:29] Dave Delaney: …on my whiteboard. And there’s different people that I’ve seen like I, Pam Slim, uh, who’s great and has some wonderful books, as well, she has a great process you can find on YouTube about storyboarding, like for a book, for example, and writing out the steps that you need to do on Post-it Notes and then rearranging them based on a, on a graph sort of timeline of when you need to have these chapters done and what’s going to be in each chapter and things like that.
Another great example is Michael and Amy Port who run a great organization called Heroic Public Speaking who train people how to speak more effectively and I’ve worked with them and are friends with them. But they also have a really, Amy has a great process of story, of creating, write, creating a presentation by like thinking, brainstorming stories and writing them out on Post-it Notes and rearranging them on the board. So, it’s similar in that way. But yeah, so much can be done when you go analog, so absolutely.
[00:33:24] Matt Bailey: Oh yeah.
[00:33:24] Dave Delaney: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:33:24] Matt Bailey: What are some of the, what are some of the activities you do with a group to…
[00:33:28] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:33:29] Matt Bailey: …build that communication?
[00:33:31] Dave Delaney: Yeah. So, it, it depends on what’s involved. So, it, it usually starts with, well, it starts with the leadership conversations and then I, I speak to team members to get a little more information about, you know, what is really happening versus what, you know, the leadership might think is happening or where the pain points are using some anonymous surveys and things like that to, to get a feel for what’s really going on.
But like, one exercise I love doing is, so I have a background in comedy. I studied with Second City in Toronto and have performed improv across the U.S. and Canada, where I’m from originally, and I had my own improv troop in Ireland when I lived in Ireland.
[00:34:09] Matt Bailey: Oh.
[00:34:09] Dave Delaney: And, and so, I’m a big fan of improv and it’s actually something I, I speak about, as well. And one thing that I love doing is doing sort of improv type workshops with team members to let them to get to know each other better, to learn their own strengths, and to have some fun and, and to learn the skills that I talk about that can be instilled from improvisation. I don’t sell it as an improv workshop because mainly I don’t want to scare people off…
[00:34:37] Matt Bailey: Yeah.
[00:34:37] Dave Delaney: …or make it, or make them think it’s like some cheesy thing where it could be like that but it’s not. And so, an example of this is I was working with a, a fast-growing SaaS technology company and there was a lot of, kind of generalized thinking initially where they were growing so quickly and what happens with fast growing companies, I’ve experienced it firsthand, is you, you don’t know the new hires or you don’t know people because you’re growing so quickly.
[00:35:05] Matt Bailey: Right.
[00:35:06] Dave Delaney: You’re not, you’re not, leadership is missing opportunities because they’re busy and, and suddenly you’re growing so fast you don’t know who you’re working with anymore, and that can affect things really badly. So, and turnover happens there, too, or this contagion where one person leaves and then more people start to follow.
Um, and so, this company hired me to do a workshop with them, or a couple workshops with them, and to do this, as part of the Nice Method, I, I got, like, for example, the, the, there was an assumption that developers tend to be introverted and, and quiet and, and headphones down, coding and doing their thing. And, and there’s some, some validity to that. There’s some truth to that. But we’re generalizing, right? And so, what happened was the, the, the CTO or the sales, the head of sales always assumed that the, the developers were like this.
But by doing this exercise, these exercises, he connected with the developer and realized, “Whoa, this developer is really outgoing, very funny, but obviously really smart about the, uh, what makes the sausage,” right? And so, the sales director on these really high sales opportunities would bring the developer with him sometimes…
[00:36:19] Matt Bailey: Nice.
[00:36:20] Dave Delaney: …when he was selling to like a CTO or a CIO, because the salesperson could only talk about the bells, the bells and whistles, and not enough about the inner workings of how it worked. So, he would bring, once he learned how great and outgoing and well-spoken this developer was, he would bring the developer with him on these calls, and their conversions went way up on sales because once they started talking and these questions came up that the sales guy couldn’t answer, the developer would chime in on those conversations and thus they would have more, uh, more sales as a result. So, that’s just an example.
[00:36:53] Matt Bailey: I love, love that example. I mean, talk about engaging your employees in…
[00:37:02] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:37:02] Matt Bailey: …sales process, in, in, in the development process, in, in so many ways.
[00:37:07] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:37:07] Matt Bailey: I, I spent some time as a, a, kind of in that role. I, I was…
[00:37:11] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:37:11] Matt Bailey: …in the technical side, but yet I supported the sales team. So…
[00:37:16] Dave Delaney: Right.
[00:37:16] Matt Bailey: …I could, I could do that. And, and I kind of had a sales background anyway, even though I had that tech experience, and, and so kind of, I was in that role, but man, that makes you feel like you are such a valuable part of that business. And also…
[00:37:29] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:37:29] Matt Bailey: …you’re using the strengths, maybe the personality strengths, but the knowledge strengths, I, I mean, how valuable is it to, to take someone out of, I like how you put it, an assumptive role and…
[00:37:43] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:37:43] Matt Bailey: …see that maybe they could fit here, not permanently, but is it something that someone would like? I mean, we call it cross-training, but how would you, what’s the value of that in a company in, in doing something like that?
[00:37:58] Dave Delaney: Well, and to the point, too, just like sales where the 80/20 rule, rule is, right, where like 80% of your business comes from 20% of your clients…
[00:38:07] Matt Bailey: Right.
[00:38:07] Dave Delaney: …or something to that, I might be butchering that.
[00:38:09] Matt Bailey: Oh no, that’s good.
[00:38:10] Dave Delaney: Um, the same, yeah. The same can be said for new hires where, you know, because of the cost that I mentioned and that you can use that little calculator to see, because of the cost of replacing somebody, what could happen when you hear your team is part of the Nice Method is you can discover that maybe a team member has had a, in this example, let’s say, this didn’t happen in this example, but let’s just say the developer has a, suddenly has a taste for sales and thinks, “I, I’d actually like to try to do this.”
You are way better off, uh, helping your team members change roles within the company or, or divisions or what have you, keeping them as part of the company, than it, than you would be, and then promoting somebody to maybe their role in the technology side, because your talent already, they already know the processes behind the scenes. They already know the brand. They already know where the coffee, extra coffee is kept and to always make another pot. Come on, people. Always make that fresh pot if you use the last of the coffee. But they know all this stuff, so it saves so much time on retraining and hiring new people. So, promoting from within is a huge thing to do.
I know with Google, who I’ve done some work with, they have like a 20 rule where they allow their team members to work in different departments of their choosing, I believe it was 20% of the time. So, they could take a chunk of time each week and work in a different department or division at, just kind of shadow and work in those areas just to get a taste for what it’s like, and that would help, it also helps to keep their job interesting, too, because now they’re…
[00:39:48] Matt Bailey: Yeah.
[00:39:48] Dave Delaney: …they’re able to, you know, poke the box of a different department to get a feel for what that’s all about. And maybe they end up moving divisions as a result of that.
[00:39:57] Matt Bailey: I think everyone ought to spend a day in sales. I, I…
[00:40:00] Dave Delaney: Absolutely.
[00:40:01] Matt Bailey: Yeah. I, I…
[00:40:01] Dave Delaney: And customer service.
[00:40:02] Matt Bailey: Well, yeah, I mean, it’s, it was one of those things that, well I, when I was in a company, I was in sales and it was interesting because everyone back in back office, they felt like, “Oh, the sales guys, you know, they take off early, they’ve got easy, they go to these conferences and…”
[00:40:19] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:40:19] Matt Bailey: …and I’m sitting there going, “Yeah, I’m at a conference for five days and five nights. I’m not with my family. Um…”
[00:40:25] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:40:26] Matt Bailey: “…do you want to come do this?” You, you, it’s, you, you know…
[00:40:29] Dave Delaney: Yes.
[00:40:29] Matt Bailey: …and plus, and then we, we took a couple of the developers once with us and, and at the end they’re like, “Man, you guys got to be on all day, all night.” I’m like, “Yeah…”
[00:40:38] Dave Delaney: Yes.
[00:40:39] Matt Bailey: “Exactly.” It’s, there is not a lot of rest because you are building relationships. That’s what we’re…
[00:40:46] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:40:46] Matt Bailey: …doing all day long. And so, there was always this view of this inequality and, and I’m sure you deal with that in, in different departments.
[00:40:53] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:40:53] Matt Bailey: That there’s, you, you know, how do you, how you work with that during a workshop? Do you, do you, do, you know, do you go after that? Do you, do you help with that communication?
[00:41:03] Dave Delaney: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And, and just by saying that, by the way, you’re giving me flashbacks of working CES…
[00:41:07] Matt Bailey: Yes.
[00:41:08] Dave Delaney: …at the, the Consumer Electronics Show…
[00:41:10] Matt Bailey: Right.
[00:41:11] Dave Delaney: …was, you know, I worked our booth and, and that was, you’re working, you know, early morning to the end of the day. You’re talking all day. You’re working seven, eight days a week. Like, you’re working like over a week. I always joked that every CES I worked I lost a year of my life. Also, it’s Vegas people, so, you know, being in Vegas, what would happen is you’d go out for dinners after, after working all day and you’d be talking, you’d maybe have a couple cocktails and then maybe you would like end up going to another event after dinner and suddenly you’re back at the hotel at midnight, and then you’re…
[00:41:43] Matt Bailey: Right.
[00:41:43] Dave Delaney: …rinse and repeat the whole thing next day…
[00:41:45] Matt Bailey: Right.
[00:41:45] Dave Delaney: …over again. But to answer your question, yeah, with the workshops and training I do, you know, we do do some role playing to get a feel for what it’s actually like. So, there’s role playing involved. I do, you know, I mentioned customer service, I believe that, that shadowing customer service is a very valuable thing no matter where you are in the organization. Sales get to understand the pain points from customers that they can then speak to in the selling process, right?
[00:42:13] Matt Bailey: Right. Yeah.
[00:42:13] Dave Delaney: Or, or marketing can learn about these pain points from customers and understand maybe how to make something better or, or product development or R&D might be able to solve, you know, provide solutions or, or marketing can make collateral training manuals or FAQs or videos on explaining stuff better. So, I believe, I really believe there’s a lot of value in customer service.
Even talking about content marketing, which is something I’ve been a part of for most of my career and, and blogging and podcasting and all these things and my books and speaking, but in content, too, I mean, start at your sales, sales department or, or your customer service department…
[00:42:52] Matt Bailey: Yeah.
[00:42:52] Dave Delaney: …and ask them…
[00:42:53] Matt Bailey: Oh…
[00:42:53] Dave Delaney: “…What are the main pain points?” and, and you’ll get tons of content just as a result of that, so…
[00:42:58] Matt Bailey: Absolutely. I, when I teach SEO that’s the first two places I tell people to go is sales and customer service because…
[00:43:04] Dave Delaney: Yep.
[00:43:04] Matt Bailey: …those are, they’re right on the front lines with the pain points and…
[00:43:09] Dave Delaney: And they know how people are saying, you know, from an SEO…
[00:43:11] Matt Bailey: Yes.
[00:43:11] Dave Delaney: …perspective, they know how the customer’s asking for it. So, it’s not like, you know, “How to reboot the X1Z 3000?” Nobody wants to know that. It’s like, “How do I get my HVAC to work…”
[00:43:21] Matt Bailey: Right. Yeah.
[00:43:21] Dave Delaney: …or, “How do I, my home heating isn’t working,” or whatever it is. So, yes, you know, you’re absolutely right about that.
[00:43:27] Matt Bailey: Yeah, it’s good stuff. I mean…
[00:43:28] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:43:28] Matt Bailey: …what is, not just what the pain point is, how are they expressing it? Uh, what, what are the words that they’re using and, and how do you then structure that into, you know, overall, now, how do you structure that not just into your, your sales content, but now we, our customer content, our following up, our onboarding?
[00:43:47] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:43:47] Matt Bailey: And, and part of it, too, is when we know the questions they’re asking, even from a customer service standpoint, that has to make its way back into development or manufacturing or something, because if there’s a consistent problem, then we have a problem in process. And…
[00:44:02] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:44:03] Matt Bailey: …the more the organization knows that, the better they can…
[00:44:05] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:44:05] Matt Bailey: …handle it.
[00:44:06] Dave Delaney: And that gets back to that hear your team section of the Nice Method, right? Hearing your team and understanding what is happening so that that information can be communicated to avoid the wrecks, right? And, and ultimately, you know, retain talent.
[00:44:21] Matt Bailey: So, I want to ask a, a question about culture, like you said, you, you talk to the leadership, you get an idea. What are some red flags about culture that maybe appear to you and maybe that you could give to people who are looking for jobs? What are some red flags about culture to be aware of?
[00:44:39] Dave Delaney: Yeah. So, I mean the, the old line that people don’t quit bad jobs, they quit bad bosses…
[00:44:45] Matt Bailey: Yeah.
[00:44:45] Dave Delaney: …or bad managers, or, you know, and it’s true. So, when you have a toxic environment, a toxic manager, a toxic leader who’s causing problems, that comes back and haunts you. And so, I start to, to find out details about this in, in my initial work advising companies and doing this consulting work in this Nice Method.
But another way you can do it right now is, is look up your company on Indeed, look up your company on Glassdoor, read the reviews that your employees are usually anonymously leaving about your business, and you can get a feel. There’s even, on Glassdoor there’s even a category for leadership or even CEO. So, you can see, like, what, what employees are saying about you. Now, all, like all review sites, take it with a grain of salt…
[00:45:34] Matt Bailey: Yes.
[00:45:34] Dave Delaney: …and don’t, don’t beat yourself up about it. We all have bad experiences that happen, problems, bad days, misunderstandings. So, it’s important to, to keep that in mind, but there’s always ways to improve how you’re leading teams and how you’re leading your people. And so, that’s a good starting point to get a feel for, you know, exactly what’s, what, uh, what people are saying about you.
[00:45:57] Matt Bailey: Uh, that is interesting. And, and that is, yeah, I think it’s one of those things that people get into that and I, I’ve noticed that sometimes in the training where sometimes people aren’t as free with their opinions because they’re, they’re kind of watching to see, “Who’s here? What can I say?” And, and…
[00:46:15] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:46:16] Matt Bailey: …you get a little bit of that hesitancy going on.
[00:46:19] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:46:19] Matt Bailey: That, that, those one of those things that kind of jumps out to me that why, what’s, what’s holding people back here?
[00:46:25] Dave Delaney: It affects your brand and your name because as a, as a speaker, you know, I, I, one of my, my keynotes that I do is called as, as I mentioned, the ROI of Nice and it’s about leadership and, and realizing that everybody’s a leader and how to use the Nice Method for yourselves.
But in that presentation, whenever I do it, I get a lineup of people to talk to me after offstage. And I, honestly, I get at least a few people who confide in me about the terrible leader they worked under, or the company that was terrible that they worked for. And guess what? They name the names. They name the names of the people, they name the names of the companies, and then I get it in my head, and I surely am not the first person that they told in, about these experiences or these company names or these people. And so, right away that tarnishes your brand and your professional name if I know you or I’ve heard of you or, or your company after these conversation, and that happens. I’m like, “Oh gosh.”
[00:47:22] Matt Bailey: Wow.
[00:47:22] Dave Delaney: “Glad I don’t work for…”
[00:47:23] Matt Bailey: Yeah.
[00:47:24] Dave Delaney: “…so and so,” you know?
[00:47:24] Matt Bailey: Wow.
[00:47:25] Dave Delaney: So, yeah, people talk.
[00:47:27] Matt Bailey: If you’re a leader or a manager, what, what are a couple things that you could do that absolutely kills an employee’s morale?
[00:47:35] Dave Delaney: Ignore them. Ignore them or worse, even, ask for feedback, and then don’t do anything with the feedback. Don’t make any changes. That kills morale. It kills morale when you don’t recognize your people and you don’t listen, you don’t, not even listen to them, you don’t even talk to them. And I, again, I’ve worked in companies like that. I’ve experienced it firsthand of sitting there day to day thinking you’re doing a good job, but I don’t know. You don’t know.
[00:48:06] Matt Bailey: Right.
[00:48:06] Dave Delaney: And you’re afraid to ask because if somebody’s not providing feedback to you, you’re probably afraid of them to ask and you don’t want to, you don’t want to cause problems so better to keep my mouth shut.
[00:48:18] Matt Bailey: Yeah.
[00:48:18] Dave Delaney: So, not providing feedback is, is brutal. And so, you need to be, you need to be asking questions, providing feedback, not being feared. Those are all important.
[00:48:29] Matt Bailey: Wow. Very good. Okay, I got to ask what is maybe a contrarian viewpoint that you bring to this industry of retention, employees, what’s your, I would say your most contrarian viewpoint to the common or the, the typical attitudes or training towards it?
[00:48:53] Dave Delaney: Yeah, it’s a good question. It depends who you talk to, I suppose, right? I mean, you know, there are plenty of people who do not want to go back to the office. Like, “Hell or high water, I’m not going back.”
[00:49:03] Matt Bailey: Right.
[00:49:03] Dave Delaney: And, yeah, and I’ve talked to people like that, and I get it and I understand why they feel that way. So, for those folks, certainly my, my views on hybrid work as, as, as I’ve expressed to you here, you know, are contrarian to, to those folks, for sure. That would be a big one.
I think, I’m trying to think of other ones. I’m honestly, like I’ve got a problem, Matt. I’m a bit of a people pleaser so I always, I don’t want to cause problems. I’m not, I’m not, I’m not seeking ways to cause problems. You know, I’m more of a peacekeeper and my goal is to, is to bring the people together and to make work better.
[00:49:42] Matt Bailey: I like that. I like that. I guess I would describe it as things, you know, is there any advice that you just roll your eyes to when it comes to leadership or management?
[00:49:53] Dave Delaney: That I roll my eyes to. Gosh.
[00:49:57] Matt Bailey: Like, “I can’t believe this is still in the industry. People are saying this.”
[00:50:00] Dave Delaney: I don’t know. You know, a lot of the things that I, I learn along the way are true and a lot of the things are also timeless. So, I might roll my eyes at them initially, but then, you know, dig a little deeper and you realize, “Wait a minute,” you know, “treating people kindly, huh.”
[00:50:22] Matt Bailey: Yeah.
[00:50:22] Dave Delaney: “That is something that we could do better.”
[00:50:24] Matt Bailey: That, you know…
[00:50:25] Dave Delaney: Um…
[00:50:25] Matt Bailey: …that, that in itself right now is contrarian, so…
[00:50:28] Dave Delaney: Yeah. Yeah, maybe, yeah maybe that’s it, right? Be unnice.
[00:50:32] Matt Bailey: Right, right. I like, so you’ve got the “Be Nice” in the corner. Dave, how does…
[00:50:36] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:50:36] Matt Bailey: …this even translate? So, some of the listeners may not be in leadership, may not be in management…
[00:50:43] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:50:43] Matt Bailey: …but how does this translate even into family life?
[00:50:46] Dave Delaney: Right.
[00:50:46] Matt Bailey: How can we be better fathers, mothers, sons, daughters, whatever? How, how does this methodology translate into my every day?
[00:50:57] Dave Delaney: It really does. I mean, it’s the same, you know, replace hear your team with hear your family, right? Um, but it does. I mean, if you’re listening, if you’re actively listening and you’re focusing on truly listening, looking the person, maybe it’s a, maybe it’s your, your kiddo, them about ways that they can communicate better.
I’ve shared this story about my, my son is more introverted, he’s a teenager. He’s more introverted, I’m more extroverted, my wife is introverted, my daughter is extroverted. Go figure. So, but my son’s like, “Ah, I don’t like, I don’t like having to talk to so many people or, or, you know, making small talk and things.”
And for that, I always say like, you know, ask open-ended questions when you talk to somebody because what happens there is they end up talking about themselves way more, and they do the bulk of the talking so that you don’t have to. And, and he’s tried it and he’s like, “Oh man, it totally worked well.” Like, so the person loves him ’cause they’re, people like talking, clearly.
[00:51:52] Matt Bailey: Right. Right.
[00:51:53] Dave Delaney: I, I’m a good example of that. But yeah, so, and, and this listening, this is part of this listen acronym that I teach during the Nice Method workshops and, and in, in, in the webcast if you, if you watch that on the site. And actually I, I have a, a book called nice, “The Nice Method,” which I’m happy to offer your listeners for free if they’d like to, what’s a good code…
[00:52:14] Matt Bailey: Wow.
[00:52:14] Dave Delaney: …to use and I can, I’ll make a code. I’m just thinking of that.
[00:52:16] Matt Bailey: Oh, that’s amazing, Dave. That’d be awesome.
[00:52:19] Dave Delaney: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
[00:52:19] Matt Bailey: Uh, wow. Why don’t we just, why don’t we just put, I’m trying to think here. Let’s, how about “NICECOFFEE?”
[00:52:25] Dave Delaney: “NICECOFFEE.” Okay. So, if your listeners go to nicemethod.us or nicemethod.us and use the coupon code “NICECOFFEE,” they’ll get my book for free…
[00:52:40] Matt Bailey: Nice.
[00:52:40] Dave Delaney: …which I think is $19 or $20 retail so…
[00:52:43] Matt Bailey: That, thank you, Dave.
[00:52:43] Dave Delaney: …they can get that for free.
[00:52:45] Matt Bailey: That’s awesome.
[00:52:45] Dave Delaney: Yeah, of course.
[00:52:45] Matt Bailey: Thank you.
[00:52:46] Dave Delaney: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No problem.
[00:52:47] Matt Bailey: That is, that is great. That’s just, you know, I, it’s funny, we, I, I was wondering, I’m like, “Can we talk and not geek out like we, we did before?” Because that was…
[00:52:57] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:52:57] Matt Bailey: …that was just, that was just down a, a trip down memory lane and a rabbit hole…
[00:53:02] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:53:02] Matt Bailey: …in itself. But this has been fascinating learning about how you’re working with teams, how you’re working with companies really to open those lines of communication. You know, I, I look at it, too, my family, I, I’ve got a, a teenage daughter who, she started out extremely extroverted and then became introverted.
[00:53:18] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:53:19] Matt Bailey: And she had to learn just to tell people, “I don’t like that…”
[00:53:24] Dave Delaney: Yes. Yes.
[00:53:25] Matt Bailey: “…and please stop.”
[00:53:26] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:53:26] Matt Bailey: And, and now, boy, she has no problem saying it. It’s, and, and, and because…
[00:53:32] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:53:32] Matt Bailey: …you know, like you, I’m extroverted, I like to joke, I like to have fun and, and she’ll just kind of give me that look and just, “Stop.” I’m like, “Uh…”
[00:53:40] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:53:41] Matt Bailey: “…come on.”
[00:53:42] Dave Delaney: Well…
[00:53:42] Matt Bailey: “I’m being funny.”
[00:53:44] Dave Delaney: Yeah, I, I think it’s, it’s even, even beyond the, the introvert, extrovert, ambivert topic. I think also, teenagers.
[00:53:55] Matt Bailey: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:53:56] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:53:57] Matt Bailey: I hear you.
[00:53:57] Dave Delaney: Yeah, there’s, there’s that.
[00:53:58] Matt Bailey: I’ve, I’ve got, I’ve got three of them right now and so…
[00:54:01] Dave Delaney: Oh man.
[00:54:01] Matt Bailey: …yeah. Yeah.
[00:54:02] Dave Delaney: Yeah. I’ve got two, so yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Always interesting.
[00:54:06] Matt Bailey: It is. It is. Something, I, I think my wife was reading a book saying something about, yes, it, there is something wrong with your teenager’s brain. It was something like that.
[00:54:16] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:54:17] Matt Bailey: But it was all about all the chemical changes that are going on and yeah, there, there is some craziness going on in there and, and we just got to deal with it and figure out how to navigate it.
[00:54:26] Dave Delaney: Yeah. And like, getting back to work, right? Beyond family and work it’s, you know, empathy, emotional intelligence is important because yeah, I mean, keeping that in mind, too, you know, I remind my kids all the time, I’m like, “Your brain’s not fully developed until you’re 26, by the way, so, just saying.” Um…
[00:54:42] Matt Bailey: That is a, a great statistic to have in your pocket.
[00:54:45] Dave Delaney: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, I mean, I think of myself at 18 or, or even 20 or, you know, I, gosh, the stupidity I got up to, so, uh, you know. It’s, it’s important to, to keep that in mind that they’re finding the, finding themselves and, and gosh, yeah, getting up to things. So, yeah. It’s interesting. Interesting times.
[00:55:06] Matt Bailey: It is. It is. Dave, it has been an absolute pleasure to have you on and talk with you about the Nice Method. Dave, how can people, you already gave us the, the offer for the, the book and…
[00:55:15] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:55:15] Matt Bailey: …thank you so much for that.
[00:55:16] Dave Delaney: Yeah.
[00:55:16] Matt Bailey: How, what are some other ways that people can find out more about you?
[00:55:20] Dave Delaney: Yeah. I mean, you can go to futureforth.com. That’s where I live. I also, my speaking page is davedelaney.me and if you just Google “Dave Delaney,” I’m on all the social networks. Usually number one when you do a Google “Dave Delaney” so, hopefully, uh, the other Dave Delaneys haven’t surpassed me yet, but yeah.
[00:55:37] Matt Bailey: Great. Thank you so much, Dave. And, and dear listener, thank you so much for tuning in and I will have links to all of Dave’s things and sites and profiles on the show page if you’re interested. And I hope this has been inspiring to you whether you’re a manager, a leader, or in an organization to open up those lines of communications, and maybe you have a chance to bring Dave into your group and improve the way your team works together. So, thank you so much, listeners, for tuning in to another edition of the Endless Coffee Cup podcast. I look forward to having another cup of coffee with you next time.
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