Matt Bailey: He likes seeing pictures of people who look like us. Yeah. That’s why images are so powerful. We remember that it speaks to us and it carries an emotion with us. So that’s part of the, you know, we like seeing people like us,
Ashley Schweigert: Yeah we do.
Matt: And that speaks a lot to, you know, the type of marketing that people are doing, you know, being more sensitive to cultural factors.
Introduction: Welcome to endless coffee cup, a regular discussion of marketing news, culture and media for our complex digital lifestyle. Join Matt Bailey. As he engages in conversation to find insights beyond the latest headlines and deeper understanding for those involved in marketing. Grab a cup of coffee, have a seat, and thanks for joining.
Matt: Hello listener. And thank you again for joining us on the endless coffee cup podcast. Once again, Ashley’s visiting with us. How are you doing Ashley?
Ashley: I’m great. How are you? Thank you for having me.
Matt: Oh, I’m doing well doing well. It’s been a challenge trying to get back together here to get back in the studio.
Ashley: Yes. We’ve both been sick.
Matt: Yeah. We’re here. Of course, in the, in the Northeast US where it’s cold one day it’s 50 degrees, the next always rainy.
Matt: And so, yeah, just getting over colds and things like that. And then just trying to feel good enough to get into the studio. So on top of everything else, glad you could make it in.
Ashley: Oh, I’m so happy to talk about this today.
Matt: Well, good. We got the coffee brewed. This is a, I’ll let you know, this is one of my favorites. This is a Tanzanian Peaberry. So it’s a smaller bean. And we French pressed it, which I’m kind of looking at it, cause it doesn’t taste this. I’ll do it like a pour over. I love the pour over. Because I think that’s the best coffee you can get. But once in a while do the French press. And it tastes, this tastes different than the cup I had this morning with a pour over. I’m trying to figure out why.
Ashley: I’m just not that savvy, man. I don’t know.
Matt: I’m tasting this going, something’s up. Something’s up, but.
Ashley: I get a Starbucks, every laughing about it.
Matt: Oh yeah. Starbucks. I might have to take a break and I’m going to go and make a pour over this might the Tanzanian peaberry just is, it’s like one of my favorite beans to have coffee with. So I don’t know that the Costa Rican pea berry something about that peaberry it’s like the little bean, packs a punch and.
Ashley: I am going to start getting into tea.
Ashley: I know, I know this is a thing that for me, cause I am a pretty big coffee person, but I’m definitely not as savvy when it comes to my French press and all of that. I just grab whatever I see. And.
Matt: Oh Michael Stebbins, who’s been on the podcast a couple of times. He’s director of AMCP. He’s a big he’s into tea.
Ashley: Oh really?
Matt: Yeah. I went to his place probably a month ago and he just has this array and it’s not like the typical teabag array it’s stuff from China. It’s stuff from Thailand. It’s, it’s all these interesting nuance teas. And so now he’s getting into, well, you have to pour the hot water in the tea and then you have to dump it and then you have to start, you know, pour more water in. And it was, you know, and this is healthy and this is for this. And it was an education,
Ashley: It’s a big thing. I just started getting into it. Because when I was sick they were, I was just trying to drink something warm and then I found some different herbs and I just notice a big difference with some of those teas.
Matt: Oh good. Yeah. With, with speaking and with training, I am just, I’ve got to have like multiple cups of coffee a day.
Ashley: Oh yeah.
Matt: It just feels good just to have that hot beverage.
Ashley: Something that’s going to keep me energized. I’m always, he says I’m always tweaking. It’s either an energy drink or coffee or something. I need something to keep going. Yeah.
Matt: I’ve found in some of the afternoons I’ll just start drinking hot water just because, you know, I got to stop drinking the coffee. So I’m going to just back down now, like stepping off the coffee and the hot beverage is still okay.
Ashley: That’s the thing. It is a thing, but I just, I think I’m going to struggle with this. You know, you’ve heard how I was going on this health journey. So we’ll see what happens because you know, when I have coffee, I’m doctoring it up with a bunch of sugar and
Matt: Oh yeah. Well that’s, that’s, I’ve read so much about that. About what the whole like Starbucks phenomenon, because it’s more dairy, more sugar. I mean the amount of sugar in so many of those drinks is amazing.
Ashley: Oh, it’s bad. I mean, there’s things that you can, you can do to make your order, not as unhealthy, but I mean, it’s still bad. I mean, for the most part, it’s not that good. And unfortunately I like the things that aren’t that good, but I do tend to go towards the dirty chai, chai tea latte with a shot of espresso. Wow. Oh yeah. It’s good.
Matt: I’m like the easy order I stand in line and finally I get there and I’m like just medium coffee black. And I’m out of there, you know? Yeah.
Ashley: The whole thing I’m like, I want a grande, dirty chai bank. That hot. I only want one shot. Non-Fat milk.
Matt: Sure. I grew up on Dunkin donuts coffee. Oh yeah. I grew up on the East coast and that’s all we had was Dunkin donuts if you went out, but in my grandmother’s house, it was Chuck full of nuts. Like the big canned coffee. Oh yeah. I could make a pot of coffee when I was five years old. That was
Ashley: No, we grew up. I actually on McDonald’s. Cause my grandparents raised my, you know, my mother was a single parent and my grandparents would always go to McDonald’s like, they’re definitely those like senior citizens and I’m with them and they would, they would order extra coffee and take it home with them and Oh yeah, they still do that. Oh, they love it. So I do still to this day love me a good McDonald’s coffee. Oh yeah.
Matt: Really, McDonald’s coffee. Yeah. There’s just something about that. I, it doesn’t sit right with me. It’s this, this doesn’t smell right. It doesn’t, no.
Ashley: No someone told me and I don’t know if this is true. That McDonald’s, coffee’s actually the same type as Starbucks,
Matt: Probably source their beans.
Ashley: That’s what they said. Something. I don’t know. I don’t understand that. Right.
Matt: Starbucks just burns them. Yeah. We’ve talked about coffee. Reason was Coffee cup. We’re on topic. Okay. Hey this today. So I pitched this to you and you got really excited.
Ashley: I did. I did. It just sounded so smart. Oh right. Good talking about that.
Matt: Yeah. Well it’s brain science. This is where this show. Well, you’ve probably already read the title hopefully, but yeah. We’re going to talk about neuro marketing in online marketing and yes, it’s all based in brain science understanding what things trigger emotions and reactions in our brain. And the basis of that is that there is the, the conscious level of our thoughts where we actively process information and make a decision. We, you know, weigh the options or evaluate the logic. That’s the conscious side of our brain. What neuro-marketing involves with is the unconscious side of our brain. Or I’d rather call it the subconscious because unconscious to a lot of people just means you’re out cold. You’re not, knocked out.
Ashley: I know. I know.
Matt: No. Subconscious. I like to explain that as like the lizard response, right? The more you can get people to think on the lizard level and the lizard level of thinking is, is it food or flight? Is that food or do we need to run away? And, and, and it’s just a reaction. It’s not a thought process. So is it food or is it flight? What does that do? And so there’s this base level of our brain that processes information at that level. And it’s faster than our conscious brain. A lot of people say it’s like evolutionary roots. It’s what keeps us alive and things like that. But there’s some really nuanced stuff.
Ashley: Oh yeah. I was really looking into this before this podcast is to, you know, see what’s out there and you know, there’s really some things that you can do to program people, even on a subconscious level to get them to make those decisions that you want them to make. So I found that to be really interesting and especially like in, you know, with a lot of what’s going on today and you know, just like affirmations, all those types of things. So that’s, so I just find it very fascinating. You know, how marketers are using it.
Matt: Well, and the whole principle of neuro-marketing is once you understand it, you see it everywhere.
Ashley: Yeah, you do.
Matt: And because it’s very, very effective and probably the one place that you see it most is if your booking travel, you start looking at flights, you start looking at booking any kind of vacation. What you’re going to see typically is, and I, this happened the other day I had to book a flight. I’m looking at prices and underneath the price is this text that says only three tickets left at this price. And that is a neuro marketing technique called scarcity. That if you, if they and I, who else does this Travelocity, Oh my gosh, Travelocity uses every neuro-marketing trick in the book. Number one, if they can make you, you know, that’s part of that lizard reaction is, Oh, you know, this must be a good price because there only three left now, Travelocity, I think will tell you how many people are looking at that deal.
Ashley: Yeah. And I hate that.
Matt: So there’s only three left and 14 people were looking at this
Ashley: Well, I’m the sucker that’s always looking, I know I’m horrible. I’m horrible because I actually like to travel, even though I don’t do a ton of it because I’m cheap. But I love to travel. So I’m always looking and that always gets my attention because I keep thinking, Oh, I don’t want to miss out on this deal. Maybe I should just get it now. Yeah.
Matt: So like a Groupon is built on that, that if I get in early enough, then I can get this for real cheap, but there’s only a certain amount left. So it’s the principle of scarcity that subconsciously we see, there’s not enough to go around if there’s a limited amount and it’s in demand, it makes us want it even more. Yup. Now the other side to that too is, and, and Travelocity does this, so here’s the price only three left, 14 people are looking at this and then you’ll see something like price good for the next 48 hours. So now they’ve added a time component to it. And that, that creates even more scarcity that I need to move now.
Ashley: It works so well though. You know, express does it, you know, during their like semi-annual sales or their, their big sales. And I actually did this with a client. So I decided to kind of copy that idea and say, okay, we’re going to do this for registration for this particular program that they had going on. And they didn’t do it the year prior. And it doubled. Yeah it’s cool.
Matt: Wow, that’s cool. It’s amazing how something so simple and see it online in so many different sites. And like I said, once you see it, understand it, then you’re going to see it everywhere.
Ashley: People don’t get annoyed by it either because that was the biggest thing. So when I was trying to implement this we were doing it through email and I think a lot of people get scared about sending out too many emails because they don’t want their audience to unsubscribe, which is totally normal. It’s a valid fear. But when you’re doing things like that, that is around a sale and it’s a pretty big one. And you know your audience is going to care about that. I do think emailing your audience more than once on that even day of deadline, do it, it works.
Matt: Well. And it’s, so that leads into another neuro-marketing technique. And that is the fear of loss. You saw this one.
Ashley: Yes. I was doing a lot of research on that. Yeah,
Matt: It’s amazing. So we are wired to act on a fear of losing something much more than we are wired to act. If there is the prospect of gain. Let me, I’ll say it the other way. If I tell you Ashley, if you do this, you could get, you know, $50 if you do this. Okay. Yeah. Whatever, you know, a typical pitch is what most people wrapped at. But if they actually, by the way, if you don’t take that on your way out, you know, if you don’t pick that up, you know, we might lose this account. Now, all of a sudden, you know, that, that fear of loss of something, because it all these triggers this emotion of losing something of, of missing out on something, again, we’re back kind of the missing out. But that fear of loss is such a powerful influencer.
Ashley: Oh yeah. It’s probably one of the biggest ones.
Matt: So that’s why when you send that email last day, if you don’t act, now you lose out so many like a subscription-based company, you’ll get emails that say renew now, or lose the chance to, you know, get discounts, lose the offers. What they’re, what they’re rejecting is you’re not losing them, you know, their email, you’re losing the benefits. Right,
Ashley: Right. Yeah. It’s a good line. I’ve, I’ve done that for a couple of different clients that it’s always had positive results. I haven’t seen one campaign or not I have positive results with that mind.
Matt: Well, I also use this in presenting data to a client and showing them because usually what happens when you’re looking at the data and you’re going to make a proposal, which you’re going to say is, look, if you do this, you could, you know, double your conversion rate, which is great. The problem is most people, if you say double conversion rate, they think a percentage. They’re not thinking money.
So if you put it in terms of money that makes it a little more concrete. If you do this, you double your conversion rate. You know, now we’re looking at 2 million in sales, okay, that’s still good. Whereas if you say, look, here’s a problem. And last week you lost $30,000 because of that problem, next month, you’re going to lose $120,000 because of that problem. And the longer you sit on it, next quarter, it’s going to turn into, you know, $300,000,
Matt: You are going to lose three hundred-
Ashley: So that’s smart,
Matt: You know, turning it into the longer you go with inaction, you’re losing money, you’re leaving money on the table. And that gets people’s attention. More than if you do this, you’ll double your conversion rate. It’s, it’s that interesting? Like, again, it comes back to that lizard response. I don’t want to do something that I, and I think a lot of it is because people are, they tend to be very comfortable where they are and so promising something or showing gain. There’s not a lot of motivation, but if you’re comfortable and everything’s kind of cool. Well, no you’re losing and you could have more that’s I think why that triggers people so much.
Ashley: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I think it’s a good one.
Matt: Yeah. That’s why I think all those, like the contest, you know, the things that come in the mail, you know, it’s all about losing out, even though they’re trying to get you as a customer. It’s, it’s, it’s an interesting one. It’s one I like studying more and more just to see how that works with people.
Ashley: Well, it, I think the best ones, I mean, they usually do do quite well, but the ones that stand out to me are the ones that do kind of capitalize more on the emotion versus just you know, talking about that dollar amount or, I mean, cause I know you’re still like hitting an emotion. Right. But it goes on a different level. You know what I mean? I’m trying to think of how to explain this. Some of the ones that I’ve seen, they still use that philosophy, but it’s like going after something that is much bigger than what meets the eye.
Matt: Well, I mean, yeah, if you can tie that. So like from an analytics and data standpoint, I love tying that to money. That speaks a lot from a marketing standpoint, when you can tie loss into a deeper emotion and this is where I like going like to Maslow’s hierarchy. And so if you tie loss to you know, this could affect your job performance, right. You know, this, this will affect.
Ashley: And that’s why I like doing that because I, a lot with B2B and I mean, don’t get me wrong. I have B to C clients too, but that works really well whenever you’re creating like white papers and things like that, they’re more like solution oriented. Right. if you can create a white paper that is going to still like capitalize on that emotion, but also presents that fear of loss. If they don’t get it, they’re not going to be a top performer. You’re going to get those downloads.
Matt: Yep. Well, and that’s what I’m, you know, in my training content right now, you know, you did some of the research on this where it’s not enough that, you know, your job more and more employers are wanting you to be able to present, persuade and do more public presentation. And so that’s what I’m kind of telling people now is, Hey, skills are important. You’ve got to have the skills, but you know what you’re going to need. Now, you’re going to need the ability to present persuade you know, persuasively, give people information. And so if you don’t do this, you are cutting off potential. You know, you could get promoted, you could get management position, you know, you could grow in the company. But if you aren’t concerned about this side of the business, about presenting and speaking and how to present data or how to present strategy, then you are limiting your job prospects.
Ashley: It’s such a thin right now because we are constantly evolving as a society. And you know, there’s more technology and you have to be able to use that technology in a smart way. And you can’t just sit at your computer and have a party by yourself. You have to like start inviting people to the party. You have to think about how am I going to coordinate this party? How am I going to get people acting and involved? And it’s just, it’s a much bigger picture.
Matt: So yes, tying that sense of loss into a deeper emotion, like job security, like Oh, you know, social media is huge in it. This plays a huge part because another part of neuro marketing is called social validation. This is why reviews are so important for products for you know, restaurants for, I mean, there, there is a whole industry on reviews because it’s validation. It’s a third party validation of a place you know, a restaurant, an event, a product. And, but we see this also in social media where it likes our evaluation, that social value validation.
Ashley: I feel I have a lot of I guess, sympathy for business owners who are just getting involved in social media is now it’s really, it’s a pay to play space. It’s not like what it used to be. I mean, it’s really, you got to put some advertising dollars into that. You know, I get contacted all the time from clients who wanted to do social and they want to just pay me. Right. And having to do some organic posts. Yeah. Good luck getting followers. I mean, I hate to say it, but I mean, I want to see you get results. You really do have to pay for that. So that’s how you have to be strategic about like going into like what you’re saying, use those pieces to create posts that are, are going to get those likes, like get that that human element involved, where you’re going to have people that are going to like that post, that you’re advertising on to increase the probability of your organic posts to show up in the news feed. Yeah. It’s a game.
Matt: It is, and, and I think, you know, as far as like influencers go, you know, they’re, they thrive on the validation of their followers, but they also operate on a fear of loss. They don’t want to lose followers. They don’t want to lose you know, and, and I think that’s what drives so much of the, kind of the behavior that the outlandish behavior, some of the statements that they have to walk back and apologize for it’s because they constantly have to, I think they’re afraid of losing audience. They’re afraid of losing relevance and that drives a lot of that behavior.
Ashley: It does. You know, I’m big into YouTube. I’m always watching YouTube videos. I have a problem. I mean, I really do. I I’ll start and I just can’t stop. I like go through like a rabbit hole. It’s so bad. I have an interesting
Matt: I came here to fix a faucet.
Ashley: I know my problem now I’m 13 for this, but I do find it interesting. There’s a couple of blogs, like vloggers that are on there that I just, I think that they’re really good. Because what they’ll say to try to get the subscribers and the likes cause they talk about things that are very meaningful. Like if you believe in this, if you think everybody should like this, you better like that video. You better subscribe because I want to make sure that everybody else can see this because there is an algorithm here, people.
Ashley: And in order for me to show up, I swear to you, there were people saying that and I loved it because as a marketer, I think for them to just be so real and authentic and say, Hey, I want to make sure that I am up in the algorithm like this. Wow. I loved it. I, I liked it more. I like, you know what? You’re absolutely right. I’m liking this because I, I just thought that that was so interesting.
Matt: That is amazing.
Ashley: Isn’t that amazing? I just I guess interesting’s not that the word I just found it to be? So bold is so bold and it was awesome. I loved it.
Matt: Wow. Well, I don’t know how I would react to that.
Ashley: I’ve seen a couple of them do it and it’s just, they try to get you just as excited about the topic. They’re not just giving a lecture, right. Because most of them, they get on there and you know, you have this horrible angle of somebody talking about something and they’re kind of going on a rant. But if you get somebody on there that just really feels passionately about what they’re talking about. And they’re like, you know, join me, join me.
Matt: See, I just cynical at that point. When someone’s trying to get me to join the bandwagon. I get cynical. I’m like the complete opposite. Really now,
Ashley: Oh my God. I agree with you,
Matt: You want me to come along with you?
Ashley: Oh my, I agree. If I agree with you, I mean, I have to agree here, but I do love it because when they say that I do agree with the topic. I’m like, yeah, let me make my poster board and stand out there and say
Matt: No. Okay. So you, what? You just brought up as another neuro-marketing technique and it’s actually a sales technique too. And this is the principle of commitment that if I can get you to agree to something small first then I work up to different, like getting you to commit to agreement at different levels then when I’m ready to give the big,
Okay. Ashley, here’s the contract, you know, we want to say yes. And so when we’re working with someone, we start out with a small yes. And start working up. So the small yes. Could be. Did I answer your question? Would you like to download a PDF? It, you know, it’s it’s yes. Okay, cool. You know, did the PDF answer your questions? So let us know. Here’s a feedback form or subscribe to update. Okay. I’ll subscribe, you know, instead of throwing everything we’ve got at a visitor, we stagger it out and just drip it in. So to get small yeses all the way up to, okay, now here’s our levels of membership and figure out what you want.
Ashley: Yeah. I’m laughing as you’re saying this, because I’m putting myself in this, in this scenario here, because as a marketer, like I know the steps, right. So I know what to do from a digital experience. And, you know, just from, you know, study and just knowing what works and what doesn’t, I just know. Right. But then like when you said sales, I’m just over here laughing because I learned some of this stuff, you know, through trial and error, because I did not go to school for sales at all. And it’s one of those things that, you know, you have to be selling when you’re in in a consulting or a freelancer type role, you always should be selling. And I’m always doing that. But I haven’t have it going in hard, I’ll go in hard and I should know better as a marketer not to do that.
Ashley: But you know, it depends, right. Like if I’m at a sales pitch meeting, I’ll, go in hard or something. And I mean, of course I talk to them about their needs and things like that. I don’t want to want to just seem like I’m completely insensitive over here because I’m not, I want to meet your need, but I do go in hard. I don’t start with the small, and there’s an agency that will reach out to me and, you know, for some assistance and inbound and things like that. And when we talk about because they want to sell some more of my services, you know, as we’re talking about like how we both sell, I’m sitting back and I’m just kind of analyzing their process. And I’m like, they do exactly what you just said. They start small and they try to get in there one piece at a time. And to me, that’s like, it’s, I mean, you should do that. Right. But then part of me is like, it takes so much longer,
Matt: Oh, yeah, it does. But its so much more successful.
Ashley: I don’t know,
Matt: You come in hard with a yes or no right off the top. It’s like, we haven’t established a rapport yet.
Ashley: I know you’re right. Because I mean, if you think about when you go to a networking event, right. Am I going to sit here and give you my business card right away? Absolutely not. I’m going to get to know you first, let’s have a drink at the bar, you know? Right.
Matt: Actually, this is dating. This is business to business dating.
Ashley: You know what though? You can’t talk about dating with me, Matt, because I do this when I’m dating, it’s so funny. I was watching, this has nothing to do with this. Personal stories time . Well, I was watching some video online. Are you familiar with the Myers-Briggs personality test? Well, I’m an ENTJ I’m not strong in the T, so don’t judge me. People have a reputation, but I will, I’m kind of an F to some extent, but it’s funny because they were making fun of the personality types on dating. And I was sitting here listening to what you’re saying, and the ENTJ comes into the room and they have a form and there, they had it as a coffee date. They hand it to the person that’s on the date with that and say, I need you to fill this out and just send it to that number or, you know, email it to that, you know, whatever it says, send it here. And if you get above an 80, I’ll be in contact, but you see, they just get down to the nitty-gritty.
Matt: That’s why you come into a business meeting the way you do.
Ashley: Yeah, it is. It’s I think it’s so funny because I am about efficiency, elicits, get it done. Right. But yeah, it does take, yeah.
Matt: Well, and this is where, so from a dating standpoint, Ashley, let’s meet for coffees. Four. O’clock good. Yes. I just got a small, yes. Right. You know, and then, okay. What kind of, you know, it’s okay. Let’s agree. You know, I’ll, I’ll get the coffee, you know, again, that’s another small, you know, you’re just,
Ashley: I know you needed to do that in the meantime, I’m sitting here on the date thinking to the marriage material. Straight to the end I was just laughing here because I mean, you’re right.
Matt: That explains your business strategy,
Ashley: Doesn’t it?
Matt: Yeah. I mean, put it this way. I could dispense with total, this, I could dispense with small talk completely, but I have learned with clients that half an hour spent talking about coffee and talking about whatever it is. So important.
Ashley: I know, and I don’t like doing it. I I’m like, I’m just being real here people like you, I just rather, I am efficient. I don’t want to sit down and talk about your kids or see those pictures. I’d rather just have,
Matt: And this is where, this is where, and this was funny because this also is like, when I had my agency, I needed someone with that profile to balance me because yeah, I’ll sit and talk for an hour about whatever. And, you know, and, and someone needs to kind of reign it back in, but, you know, understanding this neuro-marketing is no, we need to have some small agreements, small agreements about, you know, where are you? What, what’s your strategy? What are you doing? What, you know? And those are only produced through questions and it builds trust. And so getting that, that small. Yes. That’s funny. I, I know there’s a whole nother dimension of you. Yeah,
Ashley: I know. Right? No, you’ll never look at me the same way.
Matt: You’re not going to live this down.
Ashley: I know. Right. This is why she’s still single.
Matt: High expectations. I can’t judge that.
Ashley: I do. I know, it is what it is.
Matt: No. Well, yeah. Okay. So on the subject, we like people like us. Yes. And we see this in design all the time. But so when this blew, I remember there was someone who did this a couple of years ago that when you register on their site and this was a fashion site, they wanted your name, your age and your zip code. That was all they want. And your email address. I thought it was really interesting. And then I saw what they were doing with your age and your zip code. They used the zip code and went to the census database. And through that, they got the makeup of the neighborhood in your zip code. Racial makeup.
Ashley: Oh, wow. Because that’s why I was saying, I think, why would they want the zip code?
Matt: So they could go to the census, find out the racial makeup of as well as the average income of the zip code. So when you signed up for this fashion site in the emails, I mean, I can only imagine there, their shoots now, because what they were doing was producing emails with images of people that look like you, your age, your look, depending upon, you know, where you live also where in the country. So if it was January here in Ohio, you know where we are, it was generally suburban people in snow, you know, with, you know, families. Cause that was kind of the, the makeup. But yet someone down in a Southern state or out West, it was a completely different image, completely different makeup, completely, you know, based on your age, you would only see models in their images that look like you.
Ashley: So I just have to ask, how did you run across this fashion site?
Matt: What are you saying?
Ashley: I’m just trying to figure it out,
Matt: I have got to get my jeans and t-shirts from somewhere.
Ashley: That’s funny.
Matt: No, I actually ran across it from a friend of mine in the business who was basically like, you got to see this because of that. You know, that’s where a lot of personalization was really starting to generate. And they were explaining to me about, you know, here’s what we’re doing with some of this data and personalization that we don’t even know, you know, they may not have to buy anything ever. And we already know who they are, where they live, you know, what the makeup is, what their general income might be. And just telling me how much they know about people as they sign up for the newsletter. So it was just an amazing thing. And they were saying just the results are phenomenal because we like seeing pictures of people who look like us. That’s why images are so powerful. We remember that it speaks to us and it carries an emotion with us. So that’s part of the, you know, we like seeing people like us and that speaks a lot to you know, the type of marketing that people are doing. You know, being more sensitive to cultural factors.
Ashley: Yeah. I’m actually thinking right now a lot about the, now I’m not as into the fashion industry as probably like typical females
Matt: You just called me out, you just called me out on fashion,
Ashley: I know I did, I’m sorry. No, I mean, I really should. I mean, I’m wearing a dress now that I’ve had for like 10 years, but so I probably shouldn’t be on that. But you know, I thought it was interesting. I’ve been noticing a lot of changes within like female undergarments, like those type of companies. Like you don’t see the stick figure models as much anymore.
Matt: Yeah. Yeah.
Ashley: So like Aerie, you’re seeing that, I even think Victoria’s secret is now doing it.
Matt: I have not been seeing it.
Ashley: I haven’t seen that.
Matt: Yeah, I think I really keep up on that stuff.
Ashley: I’ve been keeping an eye on that.
Matt: But I have been seeing, I have been hearing about that. They’re like even target is going to more full figure. They’re not doing all the airbrushing and Photo shopping so that everyone has pure skin and everything like that. There is a move to more realistic models more accurate depictions of people.
Ashley: Yeah. It is kind of nice seeing it. Cause you know, you do like to see people that, you know, look like you, cause you can see yourself wearing that you’re cause you know, you see something with a stick figure that is like twice your, your height. You’re thinking, well that going to look good on me.
Matt: Now, there’s another side to this though, there’s another side of this. We like to see people that look like us, but there’s another side of neuro-marketing that we like to see attractive people that make us kind of think I want to be like that. Yeah. So there’s an element of having that perfect model because seeing someone who looks like you, you know, scars, warts and all. Yeah. It looks like me, but you know, that’s not what I’m striving to be. Striving to be you know, I, I want to see the ideal because that’s what I want to be. And that’s another part of neuro-marketing that you kind of have to really handle this very gently, very, very specifically, and just can’t run one way or the other.
Ashley: Yeah, no, I know what you’re saying because yeah. I’m not going to lie to you. I mean, that, that was going through my head. I’m thinking, I don’t know what that person should really be a model. I don’t want to see that. And then I’ll see somebody else I’m like, okay. You know, she looks cute in that. I’d probably get that. Because I do a lot of online shopping and you know, when I do shop, so I’ll do that. But I mean, yeah, there’s a good, that’s a good point. And it’s absolutely accurate.
Matt: So there’s a balance to being truthful, but there’s also people like to be inspired. That’s why celebrity is so powerful. That there there’s this, I want to be better, drive and that comes across in the people we want to see in the ads.
Ashley: Well, yeah. And that’s why the influencers are doing so well because they’re living their best life that we want to have. Right.
Matt: Maybe. Yeah. Yeah.
Ashley: Like in quotation marks living their best fake life.
Matt: I’ve even seen a couple of articles lately about how in depth some of these influencers are because they’re trying to do the lifestyle without the income and it’s, it’s really damaging a couple of things. Okay. So here’s one of my favorite neuro-marketing techniques and this, so I’m going to talk about travel and I know you say you don’t travel much, but,
Ashley: Oh, no. Please I’m like looking into trips as we meet. I’m looking at this as a sign I need to go to Greece.
Matt: Well, years ago I flew probably 150,000 miles in one year I was sitting in a hotel in Germany in late November and I’m hearing Christmas music in English. And and, and I just noticed, I’m like, Oh, huh, that’s interesting. Right. And so just kind of made a note of it. A couple of weeks later, I went to Hong Kong, Christmas music in English, also mixed in with a little bit of native language, but it was just like, wait a minute. You know, I’m now in two different countries, I’m hearing Christmas music that’s English. The next month I was in Romania and it was January and I’m hearing eighties music, and this is something that like, even throughout Europe, when I’m in hotels, I hear eighties music all the time. And it wasn’t until I started researching this, nostalgia, nostalgia is one of the most powerful neuro-marketing techniques because we tend to view the past favorably and the longer things go, we tend to forget the bad things and we tend to assign better.
Matt: We tend to assign more good to, you know, back then everything was awesome. You know, when we tend to forget about the bad things that happened. And so, but also studying a little bit more, why am I hearing eighties music everywhere? Well, it’s because I’m in the primary demographic of the hotel. I am a business traveler, you know, late forties, early fifties, the kind of income, the kind of business and internationally traveling. And in that brand, that is the target audience. And what am I like? You know what I like, old eighties. Yeah. Old eighties, techno music.
Matt: And when I hear, I’m feeling good, it’s like, hey, this is a part of my, this is part of my childhood. Like, this is awesome. This is, you know, this is the best years of my life that I’m hearing here. But that’s the reason why you hear that, you know, you go to the, to the mall or something, you know, you go to some of these stores that are targeting pre-teens. Yeah. You’re going to hear what top 40 now is. You don’t hear that in other stores or something like that. The music that’s played is targeted to that specific demographic that they’re trying to reach because we associate good memories with nostalgia.
Ashley: Now I’m just thinking about all these places that I go and some of the music that’s playing and what that says about me.
Matt: That, but also look at, okay, look at the past two decades of movies, you know, Legos, Star Wars you know, all the comic book movies, that’s stuff straight out of the eighties you know, stranger things was a Netflix show, but it’s based in the eighties, you know, and of course the eighties to me, I mean, like that’s when I was a teenager. So that’s when I’m, you know, that’s what I’m fixated on, but it is amazing how much stuff in modern pop culture is simply a renewal of that eighties phenomenon, I mean, a couple of years ago it was more 70 stuff. And now we’re moving into nineties. Things are going to start being redone more and more. Because part of that is you were a kid that enjoyed it, but now I’m trying to target you as an advertiser. And the best way I can do that is to bring you back to your childhood. And if you can associate good memories from your childhood, with my brand, I’ve got you. And that’s why nostalgia is such a powerful trigger.
Ashley: Yeah, it is. Yeah. I can understand that. I see mine’s the nineties, so where does that leave me?
Matt: Yeah. You’re going to start seeing a whole lot if you haven’t already, I mean, stuff’s starting to really come around. Yeah. And it does, it runs on these cycles. They were talking about one, there was a, there’s a movie that gets remade. Like every 30 years. I can’t remember what it is, but it has gone through so many iterations that so many popular movies are actually remakes of earlier movies. And, and go on and yeah, we’re coming out with another Ghostbusters next year, as soon as I saw that trailer, like, Oh yeah. So it’s just hilarious how much this soldier drives that it really does. And so it’s, again, it’s one of that lizard reflex that it’s like, you’re attaching it. And that’s all that marketing is. I want to attach that emotion to my brand. Right. And neuro marketing enables really, it goes through your conscious brain to get to that subconscious. That’s why it’s so effective. Then we just get to talk about nostalgia for an hour.
Ashley: I don’t even, I can’t even think of nineties right now. I can think of all the, like the eighties stuff. Yeah. I don’t, I don’t really think of anything now.
Matt: Yeah. I know of a little bit of the 90 stuff, but I’m not up on a lot.
Ashley: No, but I do love how, I mean, this, when you were thinking about moving, when you were talking about movies, I was thinking about all the Disney movies that they’ve remained.
Matt: Cash grab, right? Yeah. Yeah. The live action of the stuff that used to be cartoon.
Ashley: Yeah. That’s I love that.
Matt: They’re making money right now because you know, now the people that saw that as kids are taking their kids. Right. Basically that’s, I think that’s a lot of what Disney’s working on right now is just
Ashley: It’s Smart because yeah. A lot of those, I’ll watch them, I don’t have any kids.
Matt: I mean, it’s just, it’s I remember this movie. I remember, you know, what life was like when that came out.
Ashley: Yeah. I really liked that. Like they were going through Pinocchio like all the older ones, like I mean, I know it’s been a while, but like I still have them,
Matt: I have the reason, I think Disney plus is doing so well is now you can get in and see those old movies, which yeah. Its Disney just drives on nostalgia.
Ashley: Yeah. Yeah. Smart, absolutely good user experience campaigns too. They know this stuff in and out. Yep.
Matt: So like one of the last things that there’s this whole bunch of neuro-marketing, I mean, this is such a deep topic. You can go into it and I’m sure, you know, from a PR background, you see this stuff and you’re like, yeah, that’s so simple.
Ashley: It is and it isn’t. Because I was, you know what, I was looking up some things about this and I’ve seen a lot on multi-channel marketing and how people are using this with figuring out what channels to use and how to use them. So creating that like more integrated, exp integrated experience because yeah, I mean, you’re right. Like with PR, like, it should be kind of like more common sense, but it’s not always like that. Like when we think PR and emotion and using nostalgia, things like that, my mind goes into content marketing immediately, like creating that story. And I always find that the story element versus the more like you can still be educational and how that story element, but the best campaigns are the ones that have that entertaining type element to it. I mean, they really are. And I mean, some of them am early in my career that when content marketing was first coming out and I would pitch these you know, to my boss, or wherever I was at and I would get these looks like, you know, deer in headlight, what are you talking about?
Ashley: Like now I do them because you know, now I’m able to make those decisions. Right. And they do extremely well and they do better than the typical educational campaign that you have. That is about a pain point. And you know, this white paper to download this blog post to download. I mean, yeah, those do good too, but they’re not memorable.
Matt: Well, and storytelling is a neuro-marketing technique. It’s more memorable. It has specific points. It has a structure to follow and just it’s people empathize with a story more than facts and data. And
Ashley: You know, even like whenever, you know, I was doing something on like slide decks. I know that seems like weird, but yeah, I was doing something on slide backs and your slide deck the best practice when creating a slide deck for a presentation is to have it, tell a story, to make it to where it tells a story. And I think that when people hear that, they think, okay, I need apply. I needed like an intro. No, it’s deeper than that. You know, you’re capturing your audience’s attention. So you have to take the same approach whenever you’re recruiting any marketing deliverable. And it’s connecting with your audience, like figuring out a way that is going to work for them and make it memorable. And I just think capturing an emotion is really key. And I think it will be like when you get into that, you know, that fear of loss, all those other pieces, I think will naturally go into that. Once you start mapping out your content and you get into those call to actions, because you’ll already have that emotion at the forefront.
Matt: So where I learned about storytelling, I went to a standup clinic, like standup comedy and took a couple of clinics and how to be a standup comedian.
Ashley: Where you good at it?
Matt: I, Yeah Ashley, I was fantastic.
Ashley: Oh my gosh, we should go to amateur night.
Matt: Well, and that was part of it is at the end you had to kind of give up and do it.
Ashley: Yeah, cause they do that right, like you have to get up and do a routine.
Matt: My training, I mean, my training is a routine. So yeah, good at it.
Ashley: Oh my gosh.
Matt: Because I incorporate the elements of good standup and believe it or not, there is a whole framework and it’s a storytelling framework because it’s all about, okay, how can you connect with the audience? Because you have to have that connection. There has to be empathy for you for some situation, but then there was a way that you shift everything that’s unexpected. And that’s what makes it funny. Is there there’s just that. Okay. Tell me. And, and a part of it was what, something out your childhood, something at work that was funny that’s happened. Okay. Now, how do you shift that to the unexpected?
Ashley: And that shift is like the CTA forgetting somebody to do something like the fear of loss or something like that. So funny, like when you were saying when you were talking about this and the storytelling element, I like comedians quite a bit. And you know, one of he’s, you know, I feel like his new stuff isn’t as great, but like, you know, Louis C K. Yeah. So I liked it whenever I think that I, you know, I haven’t been following him in a while, but like, I think he was married and then got divorced or something. I feel like the ones when he was married or like better, because there were more relatable. I feel like what happens with comedians? Like as they run out of material, they start relying on like curse words and like profanity as well. Yeah. And it’s just, it’s not, I don’t find them funny because now it’s that relatable. Yeah. I can’t understand what you’re saying. Right.
Like I love Louis CK story about hitting a deer. Hey, we’ve all been there. Right. You want to feel bad for the deer, but you can’t feel bad for the deer. Cause you just ruined your car, but I just find it. You know, his story is hilarious is they’re way more relatable as same thing with Chapelle, like his are relatable.
Matt: They take the mundane and make it funny just by looking at the situation slightly differently. Yeah. And that’s all that is a standup technique that know I’m bringing you in to a relatable situation. I’m making you laugh about it. So now I’m engaging your emotion, which means you’re, you’re tied in, I mean, it’s all storytelling techniques. And then what I love, the technique that I love the most is at the end, at the conclusion I’m pulling from the beginning, like I’m relating, you know, I’m saying something that goes back to the intro that if you were following along, it’s hilarious because that connection just brings it all together. And that’s, what’s funny. And that’s what, so I always love like the Seinfeld shows because the way it would start and then develop, but at the end, the way it would end, it would go back to something at the beginning. And that connection was just, it was hilarious.
Ashley: Yeah. They always bring stuff that you understand. They take something that’s every day that you could totally relate to and yeah, they just dramatize it.
Matt: Yeah, No, I would, I would highly, if you, if anyone ever has a chance to go to you know, go to your local improv, go to whatever and, and chances are, they have classes in standup, it’ll help you become a better storyteller. You don’t ever have to get up on the stage, like in front of you’ll get up in front of the class, but you’ll learn the elements of how connect, create emotion, tell stories and, and, and utilize a lot of these neuro-marketing techniques.
Ashley: So I used to be Toastmaster and you know, it’s for helping, like you know, you to become a better public speaker and things like that. And you have a little bit of a perfectionist. I always think that there’s improvement in hilarious. So I was a Toastmaster and they have contests and they had a humorous speech contest and I won for our area, but you know how I won because I was so nervous about it, thinking I’m not funny. And you wanted me to talk about, I used to story, I spoke about something that we can all understand and basically talked about a story that maybe seemed sad. It was like, my friends, like this is college early college, I think late high school, maybe like her boyfriend was cheating on her and how we found out, you know, the cops were called all this stuff. It wasn’t like Jerry’s burner, subsection, legitimately funny. And like stupid kid stuff, you know, but I spoke about this story and I acted some of it out. And but yeah, that’s how I was able to capture the audience’s attention. Because I think we’ve all done stupid things as a kid. You know, in our early dating days I think we have a theme here right with this podcast
Matt: It’s actually funny. Cause like, as you’re telling this story, I’m looking at my notes and like they were saying like for neuro-marketing the three most powerful things that you can talk about, in neuro-marketing, danger, sex, and food and so you hit two out of three in your story, which immediately gets people’s attention. Yeah.
Ashley: Yeah. Because I had no idea what to do and I really had no idea what I was doing. I had no plan. I just like, you know, I’m just going to talk about this story because it was so stupid. It sounds like it’s something out of a movie. But yeah, it was, it was really dumb. I’ll be here all day. If I talk about it, I can’t tell you guys a story.
Matt: It’s funny. I mean it’s danger, sex, and food and you hit on this, which yeah. It, which is interesting because
Ashley: Actually, there was food in it, we were camped out the guy’s house with chocolate in the car. So yeah,
Matt: You got all three. Right. No wonder you had their attention.
Ashley: I know, right.
Matt: The thing is like two of those are things that you need to do in very measured approaches, you know, in B2B marketing, there’s not a whole lot of call for danger, sex, or food depending on that. So you got to be careful,
Ashley: Right? It’s almost like whenever you go to these trade shows, they have, you know, that pretty girl,
Matt: Booth babes. Yeah.
Ashley: Yeah. The Booth babes. Right. And they’re just sitting there with like, you know, no clothes on and they think that’s going to get there.
Matt: Well, I went to one of those shows in Vegas, it was an automotive.
Ashley: It was a prime time for that.
Matt: It was an automotive show go figure. And I’m walking around like really? We’re still doing this. I mean, this really,
Ashley: Yeah you would think it would die but it really hasn’t, not in manufacturing either
Matt: Especially not in Vegas. Yeah.
Ashley: Yeah. There’s been a couple of manufacturing shows that I, that have gone to that. You still see a couple of booth babes or they have like, they’re the pretty girls that work at the company, like be like the greeters,
Matt: No Vegas, I don’t know. Vegas is still stuck in the seventies as far as like equal rights. As far as I’m concerned, it doesn’t exist there, it’s such a vacuum.
Ashley: I know it’s sad. Oh, well what are you going to do? Right.
Matt: So, well, I think at this point we’ve only scratched the surface of neuro-marketing, but these are like some of the major topics in neuro marketing.
Ashley: If anyone has been listening to these podcasts with me there, they probably are all different side of me after this. I’m like, oh my gosh,
Matt: No, that was really interesting learning, you know, your personality style and how you, you know, how you approach situations. So, you know, please fill out this form. Then we’ll make a decision. That’s great.
Ashley: Yeah. I do. I do like the dating sites say beats around the Bush that like, I don’t even like that because then you have to text them and everything. It’s just too much work.
Matt: And so, and the fun thing about this neuro marketing stuff it’s not just marketing. I mean, you can use so much of this in sales. You can use it in your personal life. You can use it in so many different areas when you start to understand what the subconscious reacts to and what it does. I mean, I use so much in my training and how I present content in how I arrange, tell the story of the content. And I have just seen so many ways that this applies in so many different areas and it just really makes things much more interesting, I think, as the presenter, but also for learners, for audiences for just people around it’s, it’s powerful stuff.
Ashley: It is powerful. I really enjoyed researching it. Because you know, I always knew like the basic elements. Right. But I wanted to just see what was new out there, see if there were any like new best practices and stuff that move went in to talk about. And didn’t notice a lot with Omni-channel, you know, how to create those experiences and things, but it all goes back to that story and yeah,
Matt: Absolutely. And, and one thing we didn’t really get into is like the celebrity side of it, celebrity and fame and how that affects neuro-marketing. Maybe we’ll do a follow-up on that and get into some more deeper
Ashley: Oh, gosh, I’d love to know which story.
Matt: Oh yeah. Well, and that’s the thing, there is a very devious side to the whole neuro marketing stuff. And so maybe a future show. We’ll cover that.
Ashley: Oh, I’ll totally talk about that, some of my YouTube following, you know, I’m all up to date on that.
Matt: All right. So yeah, next we’ll cover the, the deeper, darker side of neuro-marketing, but listener, I hope this has been helpful to you that, Hey, if you haven’t looked at neuro marketing, I strongly recommend looking at some ways that you can integrate the city or marketing take the time to research it, do it right. Don’t just throw it out there and expect results, but look how it’s done. And I’m sure you’ll see some other people doing it now that we’ve talked about it and you can look at as well, but thanks for your time listener. I hope you’ve enjoyed your cup of coffee with us and our little talk about neuro-marketing and look forward to joining you next time on the endless coffee cup.
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