[00:00:00] Norah Jones: One of the items that struck me strongly that has to do, I believe, here with the negotiation of meaning and with the time that’s needed, is the concept of wait time, which is not well understood out in the world. Not even acknowledged as needed, usually, especially considering the research basis of wait time and the implications. And the application of wait time is going to be of a critical need, I believe, going forward as people become reconnected synchronously.
[00:00:42] Bumper Intro-Outro: Welcome to Endless Coffee Cup, a regular discussion of marketing news, culture, and media for our complex digital lifestyle. Join Matt Bailey as he engages in conversation to find insights beyond the latest headlines and deeper understanding for those involved in marketing. Grab a cup of coffee, have a seat, and thanks for joining.
[00:01:03] Matt Bailey: Well, hello dear listener, and welcome to another edition of the Endless Coffee Cup podcast. And for regular listeners, you will recognize the next guest. We had her on before, and was probably one of my favorite guests, and, and all my guests, I love them, but Norah Jones. Norah, how are you?
[00:01:23] Norah Jones: Thank you. And that was quite a shout-out, but I think you have mistaken me for the famous singer, my dear Matt.
[00:01:29] Matt Bailey: No, because the famous singer cannot hold a conversation about linguistics and language and meaning, and that is what I find so attractive, and, and so, oh, ingratiating. Uh, how’s that? Uh…
[00:01:45] Norah Jones: How’s, how’s that? That’s an interesting word choice right there. I don’t know. I’ll take it. I’ll take it though.
[00:01:50] Matt Bailey: That is so, to me, that is what I’m looking for, and I just find that kind of passion, that conversation fascinating. So, no, I did not confuse you with the singer-songwriter, anyone like that. You’re where you’re supposed to be.
[00:02:05] Norah Jones: Great. I feel, I feel at home with you, Matthew. Thank you very much.
[00:02:09] Matt Bailey: Oh, thank you, Norah. Hey, Norah, for those are the, that may have not heard our earlier episode, could you give us a little bit of your background in why you’re on this show?
[00:02:19] Norah Jones: Well, I, I absolutely adore language, and Matt Bailey, you are amazing at language under the most interesting circumstances, turning numbers into meaning. So, my background is that I am an accidental educator of Spanish, French, Russian, and a variety of other things based on the fact that I just fell in love with languages and cultures when I was a kid. My dad is from, was from Croatia as a refugee immigrant, and it kind of got into my blood.
I have been an educator, I’ve trained educators for decades, I’ve written instructional materials, work with organizations to help those that are trying to understand what languages’ role are in, roles are in the world to, uh, become more comfortable. And I believe language, because it’s the unique human experience, changes everything and can bring hope to this world. So, my background, there you go.
[00:03:20] Matt Bailey: I love it. I love it. So, Norah, the reason why I have you here today is because first of all, I, I read an article a couple of months ago about marketing’s problem with language. And as I’m reading it, I am, I’m a cheerleader. “Yes. Yes. We have a huge problem with language,” and, and that this is an observation that I have made over the years that, you know, especially the word “engagement.” You talk to certain people of maybe a certain age and you talk about engagement, and we think about commitment.
However, what marketing has done to this word, it has now mean, it now means that someone took the least trackable action online, and that is engagement. And I’m so fascinated how this word that used to mean commitment now means someone just made a passing click. And what does that do to us when meanings change over the years and become really meaningless?
[00:04:31] Norah Jones: What a fascinating and in-depth question. And of course, the very nature of language is to change constantly, especially those words which, like you just mentioned, are adopted by those that have an outside interest in accomplishing something. They start using shorthand, and as a result, the word is, you know, you have presented this in a way that we might use the word “degraded,” certainly changed.
It’s inevitable that language will do that, though. So, it, when we have the word engagement, it takes a while. Sometimes apparently, it’s true still, that people do not realize that the word’s concept has changed underneath. That commitment is not there. So, it’s interesting, Matt, what I would do is say, an additional reflection is, as long as people that are in the same tribe are talking to each other, and they understand what in this case say, engagement means, it’s a click, then we’re safe.
The problem becomes if people are not reflecting on the fact that they’re using tribal speak, and that not everyone outside of their tribe understands what engagement means. Which is something that every group, no matter what their role, be it in marketing or anything else, can take care of by sitting back and saying, “Is this the understanding of the word out there in the big world, and are we handicapping ourselves, wounding ourselves, if we don’t realize what the meaning is?”
[00:06:08] Matt Bailey: So, you have, okay. Your solution, and I love how you tackled that of, if it’s within my community, that we have this shared meaning, then we’re good. Here’s the problem. So, in my training, and, and as you know, I train marketers and digit, data and analytics. I’ve been instituting a poll at the beginning of every course. And this poll now asks people, and, and many of them are in the same organizations.
[00:06:38] Norah Jones: Okay.
[00:06:39] Matt Bailey: How do you define an impression? Or how do you define a view? Now in marketing, this is, I would say it’s, it’s your, it’s your top-level metric that if you’re doing an ad campaign, if you’re trying to see how many people have, have seen your ad, you’re measuring impressions or views. And I am amazed that even within organizations, there’s so many different definitions that people would, and I give them five options to go for. And we’ll have an, an even distribution of the answers.
[00:07:21] Norah Jones: Oops. Ouch.
[00:07:22] Matt Bailey: And, now what I find very interesting is the vast majority of people define an impression in what I would call a human concept. That I saw the ad, therefore that’s an ad view or an impression.
[00:07:37] Norah Jones: Interesting.
[00:07:38] Matt Bailey: Now, what I then bring in is, “Now how many of you are advertising on Facebook or Instagram?” Because Facebook defines an ad view as anything larger than zero pixels that was displayed for anything more than zero seconds.
[00:07:59] Norah Jones: Oh my. Wow.
[00:07:59] Matt Bailey: Yeah, exactly.
[00:08:01] Norah Jones: That’s a fairly, fairly, uh, low definition of view, I think.
[00:08:04] Matt Bailey: Yeah. Right. And so, here’s the problem that even within the community, we have many different opinions or understandings of what this could mean, but we’re paying a third party with their own definition that is more restrictive and specific than anyone else guesses.
[00:08:30] Norah Jones: Wow. That’s an interesting point, indeed. You are, you don’t have the time or the system to have double-checked against what your assumptions are, even inside the tribe’s, uh, definition if we continue that. Wow. That’s, that’s heavy.
[00:08:46] Matt Bailey: Absolutely, and so, it, it comes down, and this is something that you, actually, in one of our email exchanges, you brought this up and I thought it was so fascinating, negotiation of meaning. And that right there struck me because within these marketing communities, tribes, whatever we want to call them, we don’t negotiate meaning. We don’t, we don’t sit around and ask, “What does this mean, and how do we define it for the organization?” And the longer that goes on, the more dangerous it’s going to be for these agencies or companies that don’t have that shared definition.
[00:09:27] Norah Jones: Absolutely right. You know, Matt, you have tapped on what, in language education, and it’s useful in thinking, in the business world. No question, and the trainings that I’ve done for business folks, they have resonated well with this. And so, here it comes, and that is, there are basically three modes of communication.
[00:10:00] The receptive mode. The, what we would call the interpretive mode where people are reading, listening, watching something. And then there is the interpersonal mode, and I’ll shift that for just a second to the third, which is the presentational mode, which is through writing or speaking or video, for example, that a message is conveyed. In the first two, the recipient or the presenter is throwing things out in the world, whether or not anyone is actually understanding it.
Whereas in the middle one, the interpersonal, which can be in writing, can be in speech, the alive nature of it means that that’s negotiation of meaning, time, this is where people say something where the collapse happens in front of one, if you will, or at least the stumble. And we are able then to say, “Well, what I mean by that is,” and come to a conclusion.
And clearly this is a very difficult thing to do under normal circumstances. It takes time, and it also means that people have to be aware of the negotiation as part of, one of the most important parts of this, second of the, of these three modes, and, uh, it’s very challenging when you come down to where people are very busy and trying to rush onto the next thing. But critical, critical in order to make sure that what one’s doing is effective.
[00:11:19] Matt Bailey: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I, I remember when, so, now I’m going to bring in my educational experience. When I was working on my master’s degree, it was all an asynchronous experience. And so, there were no live lectures. There were no live discussions. But what I found interesting is what drove us to have synchronous meetups, what drove us to contact one another and have discussions were unclear instructions.
[00:11:52] Norah Jones: Oh.
[00:11:52] Matt Bailey: “What does this mean?” And so, by getting other people, and, and what we were doing was negotiating that meaning from the instructions of the assignment so that it, well, I, I guess the way I justified it was, “If I’m going to do this wrong, four other people are going to do it the wrong way, as well.”
[00:12:12] Norah Jones: Exactly right. Misery loves company.
[00:12:13] Matt Bailey: That’s right.
[00:12:14] Norah Jones: And, yes, exactly. Brilliant. Brilliant. Well, you know, Matt, it’s really interesting because again, with the negotiation of meaning, there’s so many levels of this. You guys were together there in a course, and you needed to know what the instructions were that you were all experiencing at the same time.
I think especially challenging in the marketing world, business world, is that we are throwing messages forward or instructions if you will, whatever, however you’d like to define it, to folks who have potentially a very large difference of personal experiences. Their lives, their cultural backgrounds, potentially their language backgrounds, and the negotiation of meaning, then, becomes even more critical, as well as more detailed in that case.
[00:13:02] Matt Bailey: Absolutely. And that’s something where, a couple of months ago we, we had a podcast on multiculturalism and the importance of understanding how some of these messages, because of the experience, we may be isolating a group in our messaging, rather than expanding that group, expanding that message to be more inclusive, to be more understanding, and, and how many times that when that emphasis is made to be more inclusive, it creates a much stronger, uh, and more effective message.
[00:13:43] Norah Jones: It certainly does. And that, I’ve been thinking about, always, as I work with items, as I’ve told you in email exchanges and conversations that you are on my mind a lot, and one of the items that struck me strongly that has to do, I believe, here with the negotiation of meaning and with the time that’s needed is the concept of wait time, which is not well understood out in the world, not even acknowledged as needed, usually, especially considering the research basis of wait time and the implications. And the application of wait time is going to be of a critical need, I believe, going forward as people become reconnected synchronously and are trying to avoid falling into a ditch on their way to understanding each other. And wait time can, can solve that problem.
[00:14:41] Matt Bailey: So, I’m going to ask you, Norah, could you define wait time for us?
[00:14:44] Norah Jones: Absolutely. Wait, I figured you would, you should ask that, right? Uh, wait time is the time that lapses in three steps. The first of the steps is, “If I ask a question, how much time do I give before I call on someone or expect an answer?” Uh, wait time one, then, with the number in it is the amount of time that the questioner leaves after the person has answered before they begin some kind of response.
And then if the response, after the response is made, do they leave any more time, which would be wait time, too, for follow-up? And what is interesting is that the research shows that the wait time after the person asks the question before they call on someone or expect an answer is about two seconds. After the person responds, the wait time one for most folks is 0.9 second. In other words, almost immediately. And it should be three to five seconds.
And then what you really should, we really should be talking about is what kind of response also comes from the person and what are the implications for the way that the individual works, the individual understands, and the group understands. And this is where I’m especially feeling like we have a strong need to learn, grow, understand, because that part of, and the empowering of the individual and the group follows from an, uh, a research-based approach to using wait time.
[00:16:38] Matt Bailey: Wow. That is, I, that is such a, an interesting study of communication and human behavior. And, and again, I’m, I’m bringing in my, my, my business and marketing experience of in, in meetings, I, I’ve brought up, this up before. The last thing anyone wants is a question. If, if someone’s making a presentation, they don’t want any questions because I, I think as soon as someone brings up a question, there’s resistance. There’s, uh, immediately there is tension if there is a question, because sometimes I’m questioning, “Where did the data come from? How did you get to this conclusion?” And what, sometimes what we’re asking is just, “What was your path to get to this conclusion?”
[00:17:33] Norah Jones: Right.
[00:17:34] Matt Bailey: However, in a business context, sometimes those questions are taken too, I, I would say too personally, and it becomes, “You’re, you’re attacking me rather than,” and, and, and there’s a, so there’s some misunderstanding there. But also in that presentation, I find that many don’t leave space for questions.
[00:17:54] Norah Jones: Yes.
[00:17:55] Matt Bailey: They don’t want them. They, they’re, they’re trying to remove that time for questions, and I’ve seen many speakers of, “Okay. Any questions? Nope. Good. Let’s move on.”
[00:18:04] Norah Jones: Right. Yeah.
[00:18:05] Matt Bailey: And I, and I have found out, and it’s funny ’cause I didn’t even know about this, this, wait, this is what I love about education is there’s these models and research that I’ve never known about, but I’ve learned that especially when I’m teaching, if I leave like a five second gap after asking a question, it becomes very uncomfortable.
[00:18:27] Norah Jones: Uh huh.
[00:18:28] Matt Bailey: People don’t like that.
[00:18:31] Norah Jones: They have to be trained. You’re so right, Matt. You’re so right.
[00:18:36] Matt Bailey: It’s, yeah it, it, it, you could see people physically shift and move the longer nothing is said after that question.
[00:18:46] Norah Jones: Yeah.
[00:18:47] Matt Bailey: That is such an uncomfortable moment.
[00:18:48] Norah Jones: It, it is. And, and the thing, what I love about what you do, is you do that action research. You just have an intrinsic skill that way, that it’s just admirable. When I was working with my action research after a three-year program that I went back, well, in the 1980s and 90s from a, the Appalachian Educational Laboratory, what I found was I truly did have to train students or those up to whom I was presenting to understand that I was pausing even in the way my face responded to the question. Even in the way that my body posture was in front of them, because what we do, which you have discovered there with that discomfort is folks are used to receiving affirmation from the authority figure.
[00:20:00] And the training to say I’m… and still I’m, while you think about your answer, it doesn’t mean that it was either correct or incorrect or insightful or goofy. It means only that we’re waiting to see if you have something else to say, and I’m get… group work where the business growth, where organizational growth comes in, as well as individual growth, is while you were compatriots think, now in a classroom skill set building area, and this will be interesting to see if you can, if this relates well to what you have already done, Matt, or might consider doing is then I will then ask the peers in the room, “What did you think of the answer?”
Calling on individuals as necessary based on what kind of a group it is or allowing for volunteers. This way, everyone has had a chance to think about the same question that was asked that that individual proceeded to respond to or provide input. Everybody gets a chance to play. Everybody gets a chance to express their understanding, their background. So, in a way, a very real way, everyone is learning from that one question in a way that multiple questions, uh, put out and, and quickly responded to by the leader cannot do.
And on top of it, as a manager, as a leader, as a presenter, you’re learning something about the skillset, understanding, background, uh, of those that are in front of you. So, without having to ask any more questions, you already have a better idea of what everyone already knows or could know.
[00:21:30] Matt Bailey: Absolutely. Yeah, especially when I’m doing a, a business training and I know there are managers in the room, and I love it when the, the management is involved in the training. And I’m sure you, you’ve experienced this as well, I, I’ve had some managers, they make the introduction, camera goes off and everything, we’ve all done virtual over the past two years.
[00:21:54] Norah Jones: Yes.
[00:21:55] Matt Bailey: They make the introduction, camera goes off and immediately that tells me what kind of manager they are.
[00:22:01] Norah Jones: Yeah.
[00:22:01] Matt Bailey: And if the camera goes off and they disconnect, they’re gone, again, we have three hours ahead of us and you just told me what kind of culture you have.
[00:22:11] Norah Jones: Amen. Amen.
[00:22:13] Matt Bailey: And you introduced it, and you’re out of here. When I have managers that not only make the introduction, but the camera stays on, they’re engaged through the meeting, and then, and, and they interrupt me, which I have no problem with, and they say, and, and I love it. I mean, these are my favorite trainings when they interrupt and say, “Matt, that was great. How do we apply this to what we’re doing right now?” And what they’ve done now, is something that I couldn’t do.
[00:22:44] Norah Jones: Yeah.
[00:22:45] Matt Bailey: Because if I said that, I’m going to get blank stares.
[00:22:49] Norah Jones: Yeah.
[00:22:49] Matt Bailey: They’re saying it, and they’re bringing that in, and, and also when they respond to what others have said. Now, what I get to do at that point as an educator, I hear the internal conversation. I hear what they’re dealing with.
[00:23:04] Norah Jones: Yes.
[00:23:04] Matt Bailey: I hear some of, more context of what’s going on, and that gives me more information so that an hour from now, when I deal with something again, that hits that, I can bring that conversation up. And now, again, we have more shared meaning because now I’m teaching from an understanding of one of the issues you’re facing, so it helps me be a better educator and connect these things better because there was an engaged manager that was making this meeting active and actively participating to make it more effective for their team.
[00:23:45] Norah Jones: Beautiful. And we go right back to your original phrase that you brought back. That is part of the negotiation of meaning. Negotiation of meaning and words is what we often refer to and what, where we started. But that’s the most important, that it’s base foundational negotiation.
Negotiation of meaning of what’s important. Negotiation of meaning of who gets to play. Negotiation of meaning who gets to grow. Negotiation of meaning of who’s part of the group and who’s left out, of where people are headed and where they may not be headed. What you, as the trainer, can bring and where the blockages might be, or the opportunities can be. All of those things are part of the negotiation of meaning that can only come through waiting for just a moment, for listening, at least for that.
When, when you, when you were working with your compatriots in that course to discover what it was that those instructions were trying to say, doggonit, you were in fact providing an opportunity for you to wait together until you arrived at an understanding, and, um, it happens at every level. Linguistic, metalinguistic, cultural, behavioral, all of them.
[00:25:08] Matt Bailey: Absolutely. Norah, you’ll find this funny, because the course we were working on was creating instructions for an online course.
[00:25:15] Norah Jones: No. Doggonit Matthew, that will not work. That’s great, Matt. That’s great. Thanks for sharing that. That, that is ironic. I will continue to laugh about this well past the podcast, I assure you.
[00:25:26] Matt Bailey: Oh yeah. Absolutely. Well, circle back out here, because when you were talking about, again, the negotiation of meaning, one of the things that really struck me is when you said, “Negotiating what’s important. Negotiating expectations.” Now, that gets back to, I think my, my manager, and especially in that business context, but I’m sure you’ve seen it in educational, as well. What’s our goal? What are we trying to accomplish?
[00:25:57] Norah Jones: Yeah.
[00:25:57] Matt Bailey: And is that effectively communicated to the rest of the team? Because in a business context, when I’m teaching data, one of the things that people constantly say is there’s so much data, there’s so much information, I don’t know what’s important.
[00:26:18] Norah Jones: Yes. Beautiful.
[00:26:19] Matt Bailey: And so, as a result, they take everything that they can find, and they dump it all on a report. And so, that’s where, when you said that, that, so that negotiation of meeting, that is a manager’s responsibility to set the expectation of, “This is what’s important,” meaning, “This is what’s not important. This is what we don’t need to see, and this is what we want to see,” and that helps sets the tone.
[00:26:47] Norah Jones: That’s huge, Matt, and that indeed is, it’s, there’s so much, you know, as a Gallup coach, we talk all the time about, it’s the manager, it’s the, it’s the book, it’s, it’s everything with regard to the manager being aware of what the point is, where they want, where everybody wants to go, and staying aware of that. Staying in touch with that. Do you find that in your work that most managers are able to step up to that kind of plate?
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[00:29:11] Matt Bailey: I think prior to, I, honestly, I’m one of these people that think that we needed this, especially in this culture, where it’s that, “Get more done, the more meetings means I’m more productive,” type of mentality. I, I think with more people working from home, do you think that has created more reflection time of, “What am I doing and why am I running this rat race?”
And, and maybe this leads to, you know, what they’re calling “The Great Resignation” of, people are actually taking the time to sit and reflect, which wasn’t happening prior to work from home, prior to lockdowns, prior to distancing. Do you, do you see any of that playing into this?
[00:29:58] Norah Jones: Absolutely. I mean, when you, what you’ve just described right there, Matt, is a negotiation, a negotiation and renegotiation of meaning, sitting on the sofa, drinking the endless cup of coffee, as well. Uh, absolutely true. And let’s think about what it is implied with regard to healthy organizations or organizations where managers are willing to, and need, understand that they need to stay open to change.
[00:30:00] They have begun, or ready to accept that this negotiation of meaning in the way we work, in the results we look for in the, the matrix of what it is that is important to the organization, all of these things have been up for grabs at least a little bit. And look at unhealthy organizations, ones in which only the previous approach can work. There’s no negotiation because there’s been the background of, and like we were talking about the modes of communication at the beginning, uh, presenting. “Here’s our, here’s how we work. Now, here’s what you’ll give me.”
And yes, I believe the pandemic has provided the, a clear option for people to sit back and say, “I’m going to take some time because I’m not being rushed in a location. I can’t be on the phone,” I guess it’s possible to be on the phone for eight hours a day, however, um, usually not, “and I’m going to think about it.”
And those that are able to, those organizations and businesses that are able to respond to this negotiation of meaning are going to prosper and, when we take a look at the coaching world, some of the coaching leaders have been very specific. The world has changed irrevocably, and this is a huge part of it. People realize they have agency, they have power.
[00:32:00] Matt Bailey: Yeah. I think part of that has also led to more of a slow down, as well, in getting back to that wait time. That I, I would hear stories from people that they would get an email from work or a co-worker, and then five minutes later, another email, “Why haven’t you answered yet?”
[00:32:21] Norah Jones: Yes.
[00:32:22] Matt Bailey: And that
[00:32:23] Norah Jones: Statement.
[00:32:24] Matt Bailey: Yes. Yes. And so, not just even in a presentation format, but in a business context, that if you’re asking people questions, but not giving them time to formulate an answer, and even some of the questions that I’ve seen being asked and with a demand for an immediate response, that, I can’t give you an immediate response at the level that you are asking for.
And I’m not sure many people understand that. They, they need that answer right away, but when it requires analysis, it requires reflection in order to properly respond, that’s a boundary that I created for myself when I had my own business that just because you sent me an email does not mean I’m going to respond. I need, and, and I would set up kind of a mental, “I need two hours to respond to that. And so, I need to budget that time and then I’ll give you the information you need, and it will be a quality response.”
[00:33:30] Norah Jones: Well, Matt, you’ve addressed some aspects of language in general. And language is, it’s used in marketing and in business, which is that their language can be degraded. We talk about that a lot in literature articles that’s out and about, books, media, with regard to the way that people talk to each other in say a political realm. But that degradation is really what you’ve described right there. Speed can degrade the experience of language. Hurry up, now. Hurry. Hurry up. Hurry up. Hurry up.
We recognize in our family lives, we recognize in lives of friendship. Friends do not hustle each other down the road. Part of the definition of a relationship is taking the time so that the language that we speak to each other is calibrated to achieve the effect. Sometimes the effect is simply to remain good friends and not to pass on information.
And that is true of all human groupings. And marketing in particular, Matt, is a science of reaching out to touch people’s lives with meaning. What is the meaning of what I look at? Why would I engage with what you’re showing me? What, what will keep me wanting to see more and hear more and being rushed along is not going to do it.
And it’s fascinating because if the metrics that are available, say zero time is fine, then the definition of, in my opinion, the definition of the group that’s working with those, so has to say, not in hours, and we’ll need to adjust and see and use more analysis. I don’t, I don’t know like you do how one gets inside those figures and those digital histories, but to be aware of the time factor in the development of, of a relationship is key.
[00:35:46] Matt Bailey: Absolutely. Absolutely. I love what you said, that speed can degrade meaning. That is so powerful because I have seen that in so many organizations where the emphasis is on speed and it’s not on meaning. Speed to get me that report. Speed to get this, you know, complete this. Speed to, it, whereas the emphasis was not on, “What does it mean? And, and let’s take the time to think through, work through, develop this.” Wow. That was so foundational. I, I’m going to rewind, I’m going to get that clip because I’ve got it highlighted in my notes because that’s so powerful.
[00:36:31] Norah Jones: Thank you, Matt, for that response to this. Very, very encouraging. And, and one of the things that I think that has to do with bringing up as you did about the “The Great Resignation” is the effect of, or I should say on a person that is working, when they recognize that the hurry up is the only reason for their work, that the meaning is not the value in what they’re about to produce.
Now, for some things, we, we just get it done, we get it over. But over and over again, with one’s work is considered to be simply that which must be done quickly, and we feel that potentially that work is going to be put to one side again, and again, and again, because we know that we have not created value in the information that’s been provided within the timeframe we’ve been given, that the person sits back, again, been there, in their cramped apartment, looks out the window and says, “Why am I doing this? I know what I want to say, but the person is not listening.” And that is the definition of a presentation mode into the abyss, not a conversation.
[00:37:55] Matt Bailey: Absolutely. That is so, so powerful. Wow. And, and it goes right along with, you know, my emphasis when teaching how to present is, “You are the star.”
[00:38:08] Norah Jones: Yes.
[00:38:08] Matt Bailey: ” You’re the one doing the analysis. You’re the one who found the connection. Now you have to communicate it. And simply putting together a presentation very quickly and throwing a bunch of charts and graphs, is not going to highlight your intelligence.” And…
[00:38:28] Norah Jones: Excellent.
[00:38:28] Matt Bailey: Oh, this, so yeah, what’s, what’s flooding into my head right now is, you know, the basics of communication that there is, there’s data, there is an encoder, and the data has to be transmitted and decoded, and this is why I get such a thrill about data is, the data is already encoded. You need to decode it.
[00:38:50] Norah Jones: Yeah.
[00:38:50] Matt Bailey: And put it into a logical message. And then, the delivery is in itself, an encoding and decoding, as well. And…
[00:38:59] Norah Jones: Beautifully said. Beautifully said.
[00:39:01] Matt Bailey: Yeah, and so, if my audience is focused on the financial impact of a recommendation, then I need to present it in terms of a financial impact. If I present it in terms of, “Here’s something that happened in this campaign, and here’s all the charts and graphs and data,” and I’m using terms that have no clear definition or are subjective, then I’m not speaking the language of my receiver, of my audience. And the message just disappears into the ether, as you had said before.
[00:39:38] Norah Jones: It does indeed. And that’s beautifully said. And, and the thing is, you were talking about business, but it’s at every single level, and people can, can get this if they reflect for just a moment about the nature of how they speak to a person that’s hurting, how they speak to a person that’s curious, how they speak to a person that’s afraid.
[00:40:00] And I would venture to say that, especially speaking to groups where there’s a lot of pressure to make money, to make sales, to make a good product, to make an effective world that people come in with a low-grade fear.
[00:40:21] Matt Bailey: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
[00:40:21] Norah Jones: And part of the power of a high-quality use of language in presentations, trainings, and the kinds of things you’re talking about, the interpretation of the audience is to say, “You are safe.” And part of that, and this is, I, something I know that you’ve done with your trainings is, part of it is to be able to be vulnerable in front of people, yourself.
If it’s digital, that’s done through the use of the face and the voice and timing and a variety of metalinguistic behaviors. If you’re in front of people, something simple like keeping the chest open and so forth, but allowing people to be, to understand that you are trusting them and that they can trust you, and now they can relax and listen and interact.
[00:41:13] Matt Bailey: Yeah. I, I think, I want to get into a larger discussion here. I think we have lost teaching communication, and it’s one thing I, I watch very closely, you know, with my daughters and, and their school is again, what modes are they delivering their homework? How much of it is speaking? How much of it is presentation? I, I just feel as though, especially marketers, I can see the lack of communication skills.
[00:41:45] Norah Jones: Wow.
[00:41:45] Matt Bailey: Which to me, you’re in marketing. This is, this is part of what it entails, but I think because of the emphasis on digital over the past 20 years, we focused more and more on, “Here’s this external digital world that you need to be able to play in,” but we’re not emphasizing the one-on-one communication skills that make you effective in your role.
And I, I, is this something in education that seems, I, I’m asking you as an educator, is this being, is this being diminished? Are we not focusing as much on interpersonal or a one-on-one, or one too many communication skills?
[00:42:27] Norah Jones: That’s an excellent question, and you are not the only business person, with regard to the folks that I’ve talked about with my podcast, It’s About Language podcast, that has said that the number one need is communication. And I have actually asked, as well as reflected, over this last year and a half specific to this question about to leaders of education, “What is the role of training students, scaffolded, careful research-based communication training, especially spoken training in this world of digital disappearance?”
And it’s a mixed bag. There are, of course, as one can imagine, um, amazing educators whose emphasis on the verbal communication is very high. The training is there, the consistent desire for students to express themselves clearly in presentation mode and the conversations that they engage with. But frankly, especially with the kind of stresses and strains that have happened over the period that we have been working with, the pandemic, this, this, this difficult already art has been made even more difficult for those who may not have, themselves, the background of it.
As a matter of fact, I think that as a parent, as well as a person in society, we, you would know that we kind of throw up our hands every once in a while, and say, “Can’t do, can they communicate at all?” And the stories of young people that are literally still glued to their phone while they’re back at the classroom, not able even to respond to the question, to, to a comment or a call of their name means that we’re back to climbing a mountain on this one.
I re-, know that educators understand the importance of this communication. The question remains always, what time, here we go again. What time are we giving educators to be able to spend on the person-to-person experience that is not the same thing as memorizing particular formulas or particular dates or particular types of information? What are we discerning as a country about what we want as outcomes?
And just to finish this thought, Matt, because I believe it’s critical, is that those that have said in the, that I have interviewed in my podcast or that I have talked to on the side that have said, “Of all the things I want, I want someone that can write clearly and present clearly.”
[00:45:25] Matt Bailey: Yep.
[00:45:26] Norah Jones: “And the rest I can train.” That there is missing that which I was kind of alluding to when I was talking about my own classroom experience, namely, I don’t cover as many minuscule details that are going to be forgotten anyway, frankly, and I rushed past that because it’s true. But what we did is we communicated and developed the confidence to stand in front of the individual on a camera or the group in real life and to communicate clearly. It’s a mixed bag. But I know we’re going to need it more than ever in the world that we are coming into now.
[00:46:12] Matt Bailey: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely, and, you know, in a way I can see where, you know, this has been good. I, I, I, you know, part of my family are introverts. They love this. They love being in front of a camera, being able to turn off the camera when they’re not comfortable. And so, it’s a whole new way of working.
[00:46:30] Norah Jones: Yes.
[00:46:30] Matt Bailey: Especially with this, but at the same time, you can be an introvert, but still have a commanding presence when you speak.
[00:46:39] Norah Jones: Absolutely. It’s not extroversion or introversion. It’s the focus on what the audience is, to come back to your point. And I had not thought about it, but what you just said has tapped on something I’m looking forward to following up, which is, are the ways that we are now using digital communication to connect by requirement of all of the things that we’ve been facing over these last couple of years, will this provide new breakthrough for all kinds of speakers?
We’ve been so much relegated to the face to face, which suits for students and which you can train most people to do pretty well. But potentially we’ve opened up, just like we’ve opened up access for people that have had trouble physically to get to locations, digital has opened up their access, potentially we’ve opened up access for those who feel that they are stumbling in the face-to-face world but can present beautifully in the digital world. That’s, be interesting to, to watch that unfold.
[00:47:44] Matt Bailey: Absolutely. And it, it’s because, you, you know, I, something we deal with here in the family and, and it’s the joke that, you know, dad’s the communicator and yeah, I can stand in front of a camera and I can fill four hours and still try and squeeze, you know, things in at the end. But what I also, I realized is there are people that they need to sit through that training of three hours, and they won’t have anything to contribute until two hours after it’s done, because they need that more reflection time.
And, and honestly, I, I, that has been one of the things I’ve had to force myself into is taking more reflection time rather than feeling like I need to speak up and, and say something is, is let’s just be quiet and think about it for a while. So, it, it, we also need this to happen the other way. Yes, you’re extroverts, you, you’re comfortable in front of the camera. You need to take some and, and give more wait time for others.
[00:48:45] Norah Jones: Yes.
[00:48:45] Matt Bailey: Because we all process at different speeds, we process different things differently, and I think that’s one thing that a manager can do, especially in work is, let’s not get all the questions at the end of the meeting. Let’s, “Okay. Tomorrow let’s regroup and let’s talk about what we just did today.” Giving others in your team more space to formulate their question or formulate their observation rather than immediately, “Here’s our course of action. Let’s go,” and now I’ve excluded maybe half of my team from being able to contribute.
[00:49:22] Norah Jones: Plan in that time. That’s an absolutely beautiful reflection there, Matt. And while this is more on the personal development level, an extrovert is a person may at well, I should say may be a good presenter, because again, introverts can be good presenters, as well, it’s just that they may get more tired out from it after a while.
[00:49:44] Matt Bailey: Yeah.
[00:49:44] Norah Jones: But the person that is very verbal, that, and can enjoy talking for four hours straight, learns by reflection and question and an opportunity for others that they, themselves, may have things to learn. I get concerned when the presentation mode, be it in writing or in speaking, is not supplemented with the interpersonal or with feedback.
[00:50:00] I note some of the most impressive article writers, newsletter writers that are connected with major magazines that have been coming out during this pandemic period in particular, are the ones that clearly say, “I look forward to you telling me how you reacted to this, whether this made sense,” who admit up front, “I’m not so sure that I have all of this together. Let’s see what you can understand, and we’ll continue to unfold this.” Again, the vulnerability factor.
[00:50:47] Matt Bailey: Wow. Yeah.
[00:50:48] Norah Jones: Be it in writing or be it in a visual presentation, that’s huge. And it’s, I think it’s understandable that these are the most powerful writers that I experience right now. Those, those, that approach in that way.
[00:51:03] Matt Bailey: That is beautiful, and yeah, the vulnerability and that is the sign of a healthy organization. When someone can say, “I’m not sure I’m doing this right,” or, “I want to be sure that I’m communicating this properly,” and you’re asking for help, that, I think, is the sign of a very healthy, safe, appreciative work environment, irregardless of where you are.
[00:51:28] Norah Jones: How about marketing then, Matt, when you look at marketing itself and the, the, the decision of what data will be collected and how it will be used, what do some of these aspects, then, mean for those that you’re training or that you wish you could get your hands on?
[00:51:48] Matt Bailey: I, well, it’s funny. I, I deal with so many organizations now. It is, it is, let’s just say it is popular now to say, “We are a data centric organization,” and I see a lot of lip service being paid to that. But ultimately, what I have to say is you, you’re basing your marketing strategy on faith. It, it, it’s, it’s apparently a religion because while you say you are data centric, you don’t like the data. And so, you are continuing to do what you’re doing, you’re continuing to invest.
I had someone on a couple of months ago and we were talking about how just different marketing strategies, and, and one specifically that, a problem is social media. That social media has so much promise and it’s made so many claims, but it doesn’t deliver when compared to other channels…
[00:52:42] Norah Jones: wow.
[00:52:42] Matt Bailey: …when compared to other things.
[00:52:44] Norah Jones: Wow.
[00:52:44] Matt Bailey: And the data is very clear. It’s there, but yet, you see departments putting so much more of the budget as an personnel into social media because we have to do it. But if you’re data centric, you would be seeing that there’s a different story than what you believe is happening. So, there is a lot of what I call the faith-based marketing initiatives going on.
And despite the communication, it still happens that way, and so, there’s a lot of that going on in marketing, and, and marketing is full of hopes and dreams and unicorn dust. And, so, here, I want to give you an example. I printed this off because I wanted to get your opinion on this. And, and by the way, I would highly recommend, Norah, to you subscribe to Bob Hoffman Ad Contrarian.
[00:53:38] Norah Jones: Okay.
[00:53:39] Matt Bailey: I love Bob’s stuff. And I’m going to read to you, uh, a paragraph of, of one of his, uh, emails. “At the annual festival of marketing this week, Coca-Cola marketing geniuses explained how during the pandemic, the brand became human centric. Apparently before the pandemic, they were duck centric or salami centric or something. She went on to say about consumers, ‘We want to know what the problem is to be solved for them, so that they’re not compelled to move on to the next brand.'” Norah, this is what we deal with in marketing.
[00:54:18] Norah Jones: Oh my goodness. Well, I’m, I’m, and I am delighted to hear that it’s not duck centric. I mean, with all due respect.
[00:54:25] Matt Bailey: So, it, it’s, it’s, like I said, it’s hopes and dreams and pixie dust of, you know, “Do consumers move on to the next brand story? What of our advertising is not human centric?” I, I mean, it’s, we’re coming up with more and more words and phrases that are just waiting for pins to be poked into them.
[00:54:47] Norah Jones: Yeah. Yes. Yes.
[00:54:49] Matt Bailey: That’s marketing.
[00:54:50] Norah Jones: That’s marketing for you. Well, and it, it’s interesting because any interpretive document, be it a marketing piece or writing or listening, any interpretive piece, it’s certainly possible, isn’t it, Matt, that the questions that are asked about that interpretive piece are bonehead questions. We don’t query the folks that are taking a look at our interpretive materials in a way that provides us any real understanding.
And, uh, you were mentioning about the course that you were in about how to write good instructions, teachers that are being prepared for teaching or learning how to ask good questions so they’re not just getting goofy answers that don’t move education forward for even the youngest students, and that certainly sounds like that there. Thank you for sharing that, and I will definitely take a look at that.
[00:55:46] Matt Bailey: Well, and, and it’s because in marketing, we have created a fantasy, a fantasy world. I would say, number one about the importance of brand, and I think if the pandemic has shown anything, if the brand I usually buy isn’t on the shelf, I’m going to buy another one. And guess what? I shed no tears.
[00:56:06] Norah Jones: Yeah.
[00:56:07] Matt Bailey: I don’t give it a second thought.
[00:56:09] Norah Jones: Yes.
[00:56:10] Matt Bailey: And consumers everywhere are having those same things. And so, that completely disrupts what marketers have been taught about, and, and I’m going to read you another Bob Hoffman quote here.
[00:56:21] Norah Jones: Okay.
[00:56:22] Matt Bailey: “If you want to test the thesis that we have lost touch with the real world, try this experiment. Go into any pub and explain to the assembled crowd that you work in marketing, and that you are a ‘brand storyteller,’ and you want to study their ‘customer journey.'”
[00:56:39] Norah Jones: Oh, golly.
[00:56:41] Matt Bailey: “It shouldn’t take more than 30 seconds to get your ass handed to you.”
[00:56:46] Norah Jones: Yeah, I was actually about to hustle the person out the door and I didn’t even have a beer in my hand, so yes. Oh my.
[00:56:53] Matt Bailey: So, this is the language that we not only deal with day in, day out, you know, we, we talk about brand loyalty, brand love, joining consumers, joining the brand conversation, and it’s a bunch of hot air, and this is the normal marketing language that we deal in, and yeah, 99% of it is just hot air.
[00:57:18] Norah Jones: It’s interesting, there’s a whole new and wonderful conversation, isn’t there, on what happens when we’re not speaking the same language at all, and yet we don’t perceive it because we’ve gotten some of the words seem to overlap, but we’re really not understanding each other and it’s fatal when it comes to the marketing experience to not speak the language of the people at all, while imagining yourself as doing so. Wow.
[00:57:52] Matt Bailey: Oh, that, boy, you nailed it right there. Let me write down the timestamp because that is exactly the problem, is we’re consumed with these brand stories and brand identity and customer journey, which it has its place.
Ultimately it has its place, but to get back to where we started within the organization, do we understand what we’re saying when we talk about this? Do we have a shared meaning of when, when I talk about engaging with the brand, do you think of the same thing that I’m thinking when I’m saying it? Are we communicating on the right level? What is our expectation? What does that mean?
And, and that’s where you can just go through any marketing document and just highlight, what does that mean? What are you trying to say? What, what’s the expectation you have when you start poking holes in the language? And that’s where I would say your smart organizations have gone to a very clear, focused language rather than incorporating as many popular, modern, you know, thought leader type, thought leader type language of the, because the clearer you are within your organization, to your point, the clearer you’re going to be to your customer.
[00:59:26] Norah Jones: What does that mean when you say that, in fact, Matt, that’s exactly what it comes is, what do you mean here? What does engagement mean? What does commitment mean? More, what do those phrases mean? And I suppose there are some folks that click on these phrases and to follow them, but a lot of us look at it and go, “I’m not even interested in engaging, speaking of which, with those that speak that way,” that and one, an organization sets itself apart by speaking more clearly to the heart of the folks that it’s trying to reach in a way that’s just human to human, so that they’re not having, the customers are not going to spend time parsing what you’re trying to say.
[01:00:00] Matt Bailey: Right. Right. And I, I think consumers are a little smarter than brands give them, give them, uh, credit for, because we, it was very interesting because a, an article was written the other day that really, when you examine the behavior of a customer, they’re trying to get away from advertising. They’re trying to eliminate it, which is why streaming services are growing so quickly. We’re trying to get away from ads.
And, and I thought about it the other day that, you know, when I’m sitting and watching Netflix, for example, it’s the one place I don’t get ads in my life. And it’s almost that safe space that I don’t get that intrusion into, because that’s what advertising marketing is. It’s an intrusion into my life to try and get me to buy something. And so, the article is very good at explaining that people are trying to unplug and resist. Which is why these services are growing so quickly.
[01:01:22] Norah Jones: It kind of reminds me of high school. Doesn’t it remind you of high school? Weren’t there people that you were really glad to see in the cafeteria because you knew you were going to have a nice chat and it was going to involve you and them, and you were going to talk about something that made sense and just going to have some fun for a while.
And then there were others that you were like, “I don’t want to, I don’t want to sit with that person. I don’t want them to find me in the afternoon and sit next to me on the bleachers because they’re going to,” the, in their enthusiasm, and there’s nothing wrong with their enthusiasm, but in their enthusiasm to want to be your friend, they’re going to keep talking and keep talking about stuff you’re not interested in, and they’re not really letting you in.
It’s not a partnership. It’s not a friendship. It’s a strain. And I’m, I’m getting a feeling for some of that that happened in my history, but it’s a human experience. We run away from those whose goal is to only express themselves and their anxieties, and we run towards the friends with whom we are going to share sometimes superficially and sometimes deeply, but we know that they’re going to be there for whichever direction we’re headed at the moment.
[01:02:36] Matt Bailey: Yeah. Wow.
[01:02:36] Norah Jones: And that, that builds loyalty. I, I know what, what products and, and services and so forth that I work with that have that kind of feel in my life.
[01:02:49] Matt Bailey: Well, I’ve got one more thing I’m gonna, I’m gonna share with you, and it was an article, actually, I just read yesterday and I, and I said I’ve got to remember to talk to you about that, but it was an article about what brands can do to, and, and of course it was a totally clickbait headline. “The One Thing Brands Need to Eliminate.” And of course I am, I’m like, “Ok.”
[01:03:10] Norah Jones: You clicked it.
[01:03:11] Matt Bailey: “Alright.” But it was enough of the, of a description underneath, and what it was about was stop using the same word that everybody else is using. Stop using the same, you know, whatever’s in fashion, stop doing it. Be unique in your presentation rather than, you know, and, and the best example of that was at the beginning of a pandemic, how many commercials of, “We’re all in this together,” and someone stitched together a bunch of ads from different brands, and they were all the same.
[01:03:51] Norah Jones: Yeah.
[01:03:52] Matt Bailey: And I thought that was, as clickbaity as the headline was, I thought it was a, it, it, it could have been a better article without the clickbaity headline. But yes, stop acting like everybody else and stop using the, the in-vogue word because when you’re using the in vogue word, I think immediately you’re separating yourself from your customers.
[01:04:16] Norah Jones: Absolutely.
[01:04:16] Matt Bailey: Because it, it’s what everyone else says, “This word is important.” Do your customers understand that?
[01:04:24] Norah Jones: Matt, you harken back to something that happened to me when I was first presenting in the sales area that I was working in with the educational publishing. And I remember a very surprising experience of the supervisor taking me to one side and literally letting me watch the presentations from the competitors from the point of making this, this item.
She said, “What made the difference was you didn’t say the same thing that everybody else was saying.” They were all saying the same thing. They all acted the same way. It felt the same way. When you do something different, what it, where I was coming from was an authentic, and I, this is why I want to reflect on this with you, an authentic, personal experience with what I was talking about.
So, I was speaking from my heart using words that my audience understood with a sincere interest in the audience understanding what I was saying, so that they could ask me the questions that would most then lead them to come to the conclusion that they wanted to give a, what I was sharing a try. Not that I was going to make them do anything, but that they were going to discern based on the authenticity of my language and my understanding, my word choice, my whole linguistic and metalinguistic behavior if you will, that they, themselves, were now going to take the action of taking time to ponder whether or not this was important to them.
And it usually was because having taken time as it were for me to negotiate my meaning inside myself, I wasn’t in a rush. I knew what I wanted to say. And I think that’s a really important thing for all people, but especially for marketers, marketing groups, but then marketing individuals, as well. Take the time to talk to yourself. Do you know what you’re talking about? Does this matter to you? Would you buy it from yourself?
[01:06:44] Matt Bailey: What’s the danger of using these bud word, buzzwords? I, I, I think sometimes people find a safety in buzzwords.
[01:06:55] Norah Jones: Yes.
[01:06:56] Matt Bailey: Because everyone else is using it. It’s the popular thing to do. But what does that do to a hearer when you hear buzzwords being used in a presentation?
[01:07:08] Norah Jones: I believe I might articulate it in a different way than many that you might ask, but what I know is true is I hear fear. And if I hear fear, then I know that the person that’s presenting is not confident. They’re, they’re making this up. They’re try, they’re may be doing their best, but down deep, if I decide to not use the product, they may lose their job or something like that, but, but the product itself or the experience itself is not down deep in what they care about.
They’re afraid of just expressing something that would be understandable because I might start, you mentioned this earlier, I might start asking questions that they’re not ready to answer. They might stumble. They might not look strong in front of me. However, that’s defined to be by themselves or their manager.
[01:08:07] Matt Bailey: Absolutely.
[01:08:08] Norah Jones: I smell fear.
[01:08:09] Matt Bailey: Wow. And, and that, wow. I like that observation because I even think about it from the standpoint of, and, and a lot of this, you know, we, we, you know, I think we see this a lot, especially now, people are making fun of the, like the socially inclusive language. If you want to make someone’s eyes roll, use as many terms and buzzwords that are used, now, they mean something, but because they have been taken over with the corporate marketing and, and, you know, what it means, the more words you use, the more people, I think they get that eye roll. That you’re just parroting…
[01:08:51] Norah Jones: Yes.
[01:08:51] Matt Bailey: …what’s popular and trying to convince me that you’re on board with it, and not only that, that you know more about it than I do. Because…
[01:09:01] Norah Jones: Yeah.
[01:09:01] Matt Bailey: And, and I, it, it hits that because you’re not presenting an authentic message. You’re parroting the buzzwords that you think I’m going to respond to.
[01:09:14] Norah Jones: It means you haven’t spent the time to discern.
[01:09:16] Matt Bailey: Wow.
[01:09:17] Norah Jones: It means you haven’t provided the value that I deserve, and there’s another aspect, Matt, I think I would bring up is you honor me so little that you have spent no time whatsoever making sure that you understand the message that you’re providing in a way that is true and deep. You have that little respect for me? Really?
[01:09:42] Matt Bailey: Wow. Wow.
[01:09:43] Norah Jones: And that’s what language, that’s what language does to each other, what, what we do each other with language, I should say more clearly, is we demonstrate respect for one another, and jargon is not respectful.
[01:09:58] Matt Bailey: Wow. I love that. That is, that is so good. I, yeah, jargon, I, I, you know, again, it could because it’s, again, it’s one of those we don’t have a negotiation of meaning about the jargon. It is intended to mean something, but carries little shared meaning, and I, I think it’s an escape hatch for a lot of people to rely on this like a crutch.
[01:10:00] Norah Jones: Yeah.
[01:10:27] Matt Bailey: And because it’s going to make me look smart. It’s going to make me look inclusive. It’s going to make me look like I’ve, I have done my homework, when in reality, you have not.
[01:10:36] Norah Jones: Yeah.
[01:10:37] Matt Bailey: You have not taken the time to really think about who you are presenting this to and their intelligence and understanding what you’re trying to say. And, and so, absolutely it, it can be demeaning. It, it’s, you know, I, I’ve, I’ve heard this before. It’s, you’re taking a stick and beating them over the head with your message rather than presenting a nuanced message that allows someone to, I, I think, you know, we should do an, uh, you know, maybe a follow up on encoding and decoding. I think that would be a, uh, fascinating…
[01:11:11] Norah Jones: That would be fascinating, indeed.
[01:11:12] Matt Bailey: Yeah, yeah, afterwards, because Norah, I have kept you so long here. I, I so appreciate your patience and, and, and indulging me with this, this exploration of language.
[01:11:24] Norah Jones: I consider it not a bit of indulgence, but an absolute joy. This is always like a party for me to be able to talk with you. I get so much insight into what it is that you are doing in the world and the nature of how we are talking to each other, specifically in the area of marketing. So Matt, it’s always a fantastic pleasure.
[01:11:44] Matt Bailey: Ah, thank you so much, Norah, and Norah, you mentioned your podcast a couple of times. If you could, just tell people where they can find you and your podcast, please.
[01:11:54] Norah Jones: Thank you, Matt. Yes, it’s called It’s About Language with Norah Jones, and it’s found on all the places that podcasts can be found, Apple, Spotify, et cetera. And I do invite people to take a look. I have, uh, 50 episodes up and 2022 starting a brand new batch of taking a look at how language works in life, learning, careers, the world, and for the better, I hope, and that is my goal. So, thank you very much, Matt, for allowing me to share that with folks. I hope they will give it a listen, and to listen to your episode from last year…
[01:12:33] Matt Bailey: Yeah.
[01:12:33] Norah Jones: …to get a background for the excitement that we’ve experienced today.
[01:12:37] Matt Bailey: Wow. Thank you so much, Norah, and, and beautiful as always. Thank you for sharing today, and, uh, listener, I hope this has been a treat for you. I know it’s typically a little longer than some of our episodes, but again, this is what the Endless Coffee Cup’s all about is sitting here with a cup of coffee and really exploring. And I hope you enjoyed our indulgence into the negotiation of meaning today.
Hey, if you enjoyed this episode, please share it with someone, review it, and let us know what you think. Again, dear listener, thanks for being with us. I look forward to seeing you again on the next episode of the Endless Coffee Cup.
[01:13:19] Bumper Intro-Outro: You’ve been listening to the Endless Coffee Cup. If you enjoyed this episode, share it with somebody else. And of course, please take just a moment and rate or review us at your favorite podcast service. If you need more information, contact me at sitelogicmarketing.com. Thanks again for being such a great listener.