How a Mix of Journalism, Anthropology, Mistakes, and History Makes for Good SEO:

Lets talk about search today…

How a Mix of Journalism, Anthropology, Mistakes, and History Creates a Good SEO

Two Old Journalists Turned SEO’s

Fellow Marketing Podcast Network host, Seth Goldstein, joins Matt to catch up on the industry. Hear how they both come from journalism background and how it influenced their path into Search Engine Optimization. They have a wide-ranging conversation about the history of SEO, current search algorithms, search technology, AI, and human anthropology.

Show Notes:


Goldstein: Political science is always handy. Journalism is handy cuz you know how to write.

Matt: Oh!

Goldstein: And one thing is, interesting is history, writing and journalism writing do not mix. History writings big, long, convoluted paragraphs that are all one thought. And journalism breaks after a one or two, but web copywriting and journal and writing love each other, because…

Matt: Absolutely.

Goldstein: It’s the same kind of writing, so it works out nicely.

[00:00:27] Voice over Intro: Welcome to Endless Coffee Cup, a regular discussion of marketing, news, culture and media for our complex digital lifestyle. Join Matt Bailey as he engages in conversation to find insights beyond the latest headlines and deeper understanding for those involved in marketing. Grab a cup of coffee. Have a sit. And thanks for joining

[00:00:47] Matt: well, hello dear listener and welcome to another edition of the Endless Coffee Cup podcast. And today I’ve got a great guest, Seth Goldstein, who is a, a fellow member of the Marketing Podcast Network.

And Seth and I have talked a couple of times, and Seth is focused on SEO but he also hosts a podcast called The Entrepreneurs Enigma. Seth, welcome to the Endless Coffee Cup. How you doing?

Goldstein: Am Loving it. This is fantastic. I’m finally on the endless coffee cup . If it was endless, I would be to the moon and back.

Honestly, my wife’s like, please don’t drink that much coffee. Please cannot be endless. I have entrepreneurs enigma on, on the network and I also have digital marketing dive on the network as well, which is on hitaus after its third season. The third season was on network. Boy that was fun to migrate over to The Network.

Cause that was three seasons worth of shows to move over.

Matt: Wow.

Goldstein: And I do SEOs, do web design. I might be getting my first podcast production clients.

Matt: Oh!

Goldstein: So that might be interesting.

Matt: Very nice. So tell me a little bit about Entrepreneurs Enigma, because I mean, one of our biggest shows that, that I did on the Endless Coffee Cup was about entrepreneurship.

And it seems like, especially now, people can’t get enough of entrepreneurship advice and, you know, hearing stories. So, what’s going on with Entrepreneurs enigma, and I love the title, by the way.

Goldstein: Well, cuz you know why? Entrepreneurship isn’t enigma.

Matt: It is

Goldstein: It’s a total puzzle and it’s got everyone flummoxed and confused and whatnot. People think, Oh, I know what entrepreneurship is and no one does. Really what it’s, it’s different for everybody and everyone has different experience with it. Some people go into it five years later, they’re like, I’m on peace, I’m out peace. I’m about to work for the man. Other people are like, no one’s gonna hire me again. I’m gonna keep going.

What happened with me in my case, journals for six years after college. Did that burned out, probably working for the man. Did a little bit, at Merca, a subsidiary of Merck. Did that for a little while between Gosmia one and Gosmia two, like the two versions.

Gosmia one to make it very, you know, PC here was a dumpster fire trying to figure out how to do stuff. But version two’s, I’ve gotten the hang of it, cuz you know, anyone knows Matt, you’re one of the OGs of all this stuff.

You know, you’re back, you’re ancient man, honestly. And he has no gray hair.

Matt: Thank you.

Goldstein: Very little gray hair. And you look at me.

Matt: On the side there.

Goldstein: I’m look at this, am 41, no one can see this as an audio podcast, I have a white beard

Matt: Well, this part will be a, little video snippet, Seth will…

Goldstein: Oh, that’s awesome. But yeah, so I’ve actually found that my education well played a big part in being successful at entrepreneurship, because I went to school for history and journalism with minors in anthropology and political. science I got out in four years. I know why cause I took summer school at the community college.

Matt: Right, right.

Goldstein: The requisites done. Cause I’ll do it. There’s no, I’m gonna get all this done in four years and my dad’s like, get it done in four years, or you’re paying for the next year. I’m like, Oh God. Cause I’m a project, the prep school, so my dad’s like, oh, we’ll pay for the next four years. It’s the same price as your prep school for the past 15. So whatever. Well keep going. Get out on four.

So I got out four. I, I feel like history, it was more fun. I mean, the history of the world, you kind of can draw from that a little bit. Political science is always handy. Journalism is handy cuz you know how to write.

Matt: Oh!

Goldstein: And one thing is, interesting is history, writing and journalism writing do not mix. History writings big, long, convoluted paragraphs that are all one thought. And journalism breaks after a one or two, but web copywriting and journal and writing love each other, because…

Matt: Absolutely.

Goldstein: It’s the same kind of writing, so it works out nicely. And anthropology is great cuz you can understand culture and why is that person such a … Not a nice person. I’m trying not to curse.

Matt: You gonna clean it up for the podcast though?

Goldstein: I did try. I was gonna use a Yiddish curse and I wasn’t sure if that was actually a curse for you. Ah, well.

Matt: You know, I found the same thing journalism in, university and, you know, there is so much that I attribute to that background that makes, I wouldn’t say so much the entrepreneurship side, but definitely the web side, because you know, when I started developing a website, the only template I had was a newspaper.

Goldstein: Mm.

Matt: and ,you know, we, did newspaper layout and, back in the ancient days, Seth, we used to do it all with glue. And you would cut out everything …

Goldstein: And a stone tablet in too

Matt: You had a little thing that you would feed the paper through and it would glue it and you would..

Goldstein: That’s pretty cool.

[00:05:21] Matt: Arrange the page.

Goldstein: I use Quirk, which is not what they use now. I don’t even know what the hell they use now. But, we used Quirk and I loved it. I loved Quirk. It was so much fun. But my professor was a sports generalist from the Fully Daily News, and he’s like, this is not what we did, in my day.

Matt: No.

Goldstein: Back in the day.

Matt: Back in the day. Yeah. Well, and that’s the thing I used Quark…

Goldstein: Graphic design was that way too.

Matt: Probably Yeah. Yeah. Early two thousands. I started with Quirk. But even then, you know, I, had to write up my articles and submit them typewritten or I didn’t have a fax machine. They could have taken a fax copy.

But, uh, you know, I’m a young reporter outta school. And, it only took three months for me to realize that I did not wanna be a sports reporter.

Goldstein: See, I love being a journalist for six years. Well, I missed. Then is what we they have now is called the internet on your phone. You’ll have to go back to the newsroom or run home real fast to an internet connection to file your story.

You can do it right in, right in the comfort of your car.

Matt: Absolutely.

Goldstein: You get an in on time in that risk of your life game back to a computer. Oh God, these kids got it easy nowadays.

Matt: Oh, I know. Because I, didn’t have the fax machine, so I literally had to drive over to the newspaper at three in the morning.

Goldstein: Oh.

Matt: Drop off my story, get done. And of course sports, all your sports are usually done in the evenings.

Goldstein: Yeah.

Matt: And so, you know, you, to wait till the end of the game just in case. And, you know, I’m sitting there trying to write as much as I can, but I think journalism more than anything, like you said, it goes together with web copies so well, and you learn how to research, you learn how to write, you learn headlines.

You learn all of those ways to…

Goldstein: Lay alone.

Matt: Keep peoples, lay out, keeping people’s eyes on the page. It’s such a, to me, a, a very fascinat. study because I think you’re actually pulling in some anthropology as well.

Goldstein: Oh, absolutely.

Matt: Of how people read, how they interpret information.

Goldstein: And it really think it’s eighth day reading level now.

I think it was six when we were back in the journalism world, it was like sixth or it was, it eight? Now it’s six. One of the…

Matt: I think it’s going down.

Goldstein: The TikTok generation, young one for snappers.

Matt: And you know, I’ve noticed that also with some clients. A friend of mine, she, uh, has an agency and she was working with a public health agency and they’re writing their content to a 12th grade reading level. And she said, your audience is not there. Your audience is basically what they were trying to reach was young, uneducated teens.

Goldstein: Oh, wow.

Matt: And you can’t have a 12th grade degree level. They’re not reading science textbooks. You’re trying to get them in light.

Goldstein: Uneducated. I’m not reading science textbooks or crying out loud.

Matt: Right. So a lot of it is that understanding of how to switch between different reading levels, how to write differently in those areas.

Goldstein: Yeah.

Matt: And I think that’s coming all into, into play here with some of these latest algorithms with google.

Goldstein: Oh, absolutely with the helpful content. Nice little segue into SEO , I like what you did there. Oh, master.

Matt: Thank you very much.

Goldstein: I bow a master. You can put this on the bow. A master, very slick. I like that.

Matt: You’re very welcome.

Goldstein: From this journalist. But let’s go back to the, the marketing side of things. Yeah. With a helpful content audit. I laugh at that one because Matt Cutts, the original span master over a Google. Has been saying since 2005 or right’s say 2008 Ray Good Copy, we’ll figure it out.

Ray good copy will figure it out. Guess what? The algorithm has finally caught up and you write good copy now they can actually figure it out. I would tweet Matt and we talk back and forth cause he very accessible individual on Twitter. And I’d say, dude, you’re not figuring it.

You know, you’re not figuring it out. You know, all that stuff, the headlines and all that stuff is not really working out that way. You can keyword stuff, URLs and it’s working, but now that stuff’s gonna be demoted, hopefully. And …

Matt: Hopefully.

Goldstein: And all that stuff. And then Googles been updating the algorithm quite a bit recently. Like every month is another core update, not a little tweak, a core update, which is insane.

Matt: Well, they’ve got some major problems. And one of the best examples is, if you go to Google and you search for a local plumber, the first 20 results are gonna be national networks of people trying to sell you something.

Goldstein: Oh, what is it called? Thumbtack.

Matt: Thumbtack. Yeah. You’re not actually contacting anyone local and that’s where the local results are coming in. So handy is being able to get that.

Goldstein: You gotta scroll. But on mobile, here’s the thing, but on mobile, it’s not passionated until I think page 10.

Matt: Right

Goldstein: So it actually works in mobile, but I support people on desktop. It’s like next page. Oh, there’s the first organic.

Matt: And not even that, even the organic listings are taken over by these networks of interlinked companies of, you know, uh, Plumber in Portland, plumber in, you know, this town plumber, this, and that’s been an issue with Google.

I think even back into the early two thousands. They’ve not been able to catch that.

Goldstein: The best one, actually, is Dennis near me, Inc. And they actually, some, some poor schmo out there actually named his company Dennis, near me.

[00:10:09] Matt: I saw that.

[00:10:11] Goldstein: And I’m like, Is that for real? And then my buddy, Mordy Oberstein, you know Morwick over Wix, he was at Sim Rush. He shared that out and I’m like, are you kidding me? He’s like nope.

[00:10:19] Matt: Oh.

[00:10:20] Goldstein: She did that .

[00:10:20] Matt: Amazing,

[00:10:21] Goldstein: I wonder if it actually worked for him.

[00:10:22] Matt: It’s really only gotta work near him.

[00:10:26] Goldstein: That’s true. And if I tape it in now I’m like, it didn’t cut show up for me, but it wasn’t Arkansas or something, so.

[00:10:31] Matt: Right, well, it’s funny, I still tell people now, I’m like, If you’re doing this on your phone, you don’t need to type in near me.

[00:10:37] Goldstein: Even on your computer, you just like Google know your location.

[00:10:40] Matt: And on your phone, it’s narrowed down even more specifically, but yet the amount of people that still use that, that near me in the search phrase, uh, is actually interesting to see. I think people have this, knowledge that, yeah, Google watches what I do. They, keep track of my searches.

They would agree to that. I think that’s what we would call like mental ascent. That yes, I agree with that. But once they see their search history, you know, I think it’s uh, my activity in Google, once they see everything they’ve searched for, once they see all the videos they’ve watched, once they see all that stuff, all of a sudden it’s completely different because it’s actually recorded and they can see.

[00:11:15] Goldstein: Yeah.

[00:11:15] Matt: It’s an assumptive way that people use Google as as kind of a second brain, but yet not giving a second thought about it.

[00:11:22] Goldstein: That’s another thing, and there’s all these new search engines out there, Nevas coming out and there’s DuckDuckGo and honestly people are like, why do I have music culture about anything other than Google?

Well guess who, what comes installed default on Windows machines.

[00:11:38] Matt: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:39] Goldstein: Microsoft Edge. Guess what? Microsoft’s gonna put it in there. Bing. Bing looks just like Google. You can’t ignore Bing. I think one will type Google and some people will switch it over, but a lot of people just search in bing and get the results.

[00:11:51] Matt: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:51] Goldstein: So you can’t knock Bing for, I mean, they’re actually halfway decent.

[00:11:54] Matt: They are, they are.

[00:11:56] Goldstein: They’re still a juggernaut and I prefer to do. Go is actually based in Paoli, Pennsylvania. So literally an hour west of me in an old church. It’s a Philly success story.

[00:12:08] Matt: I have always rooted for the underdog, I was a Netscape guy. Uh, You know, I can go back that far.

[00:12:15] Goldstein: Uh, oh. Netscape. Yeah. When you

[00:12:16] Matt: I was a Netscape guy. I love Netscape. I love the tools that came with it. I was in Ask Jeves. I hated their ads, but I loved the search engine. I thought,

[00:12:25] Goldstein: Why Ask Jeeves? Now it’s Ask. It sucks.

[00:12:26] Matt: Yeah, It’s Ask It was better than Google. But Google was getting all the, the attention and all the love

And even now, like I’ll use Bing. I love, DuckDuckGo, uh, actually…

[00:12:37] Goldstein: Bing actually gives me rewards. I just entered a ticket winners surface tablet because I, I don’t, I forget that I get reward for using Edge and that’s, I actually, I actually, I use Edge now cause it’s Chrome and Chrome crashes my computer for some reason, and Edge just works. So I’m using Edge all the time and i had like million points and I was like, all right, enter 50,000 times for this. Maybe I should get it. We’ll see.

[00:12:59] Matt: I need to do that. I have not cashed into my points on Bing for quite a while now, so I, I need check into that.

[00:13:05] Goldstein: Yeah, yeah. You may compete. No, I’ll duke you out with the circus…

[00:13:08] Matt: All right. Yeah, yeah. We’ll see who gets that. It’s interesting when Google came out with a helpful content update.

[00:13:13] Goldstein: Yeah.

[00:13:13] Matt: They seem to be targeting AI developed content.

[00:13:18] Goldstein: They have. What I’ve noticed with that is that, if AI develop content that’s untouched by the human.

[00:13:25] Matt: Oh

[00:13:25] Goldstein: They find it . I don’t trust full AI. Every once in a while they’ll put a proper name in there and I’m like, well you clearly pulled that from somewhere. So it’s, you know, I’m like, that’s so it’s always rewrite your AI content. I found that if you use a Jarvis or Jasper or whatever the heck they’re called now, they changed their name a few times or content ai. You have them write their article out for you and they help you write it, and then you rewrite it a little bit.

You’ve touched it and I feel like Google doesn’t hurt you as much, but I’ve also noticed the Edge. finished my sentences all the time. No, literally, I, I can’t start writing something and it knows what my next word is, and I’m like, why am I paying for content AI when I can, just use Edge and it finishes like, yeah, I wanna use that word perfect.

I don’t have to think the next word.

[00:14:11] Matt: I’m seeing that, yeah, a lot of Microsoft stuff. A lot of Microsoft stuff in emails. Word, uh, Yeah. Not just words, but Yeah. Sentences. I got a demo on some AI blog writing software. Now, I will say the first couple of times I was seeing, I’m like, okay, yeah, it’s pretty good.

I said, Let’s see how, let’s give it some real detailed keywords. And I put in some real, focused content.

[00:14:34] Goldstein: Yeah.

[00:14:34] Matt: Really niche. And I was surprised.

[00:14:37] Goldstein: Was it good?

[00:14:38] Matt: I was really surprised that it was almost the more niche, the more specific, the better it got. And that was interesting. But yet at the same time, the one I thought was the best version, with the most niche, I still would’ve gone in and edited.

I would not have released it. Yeah. Yeah. There’s no way.

[00:14:58] Goldstein: I have one, I have one on my say that is really verbatim ai and I wanted to leave it there and see how it ranks. It’s gone down.

[00:15:05] Matt: Wow.

[00:15:05] Goldstein: And it was completely untouched. And it sounds like a freaking robot. Right.

[00:15:09] Matt: Wow. I think that’s interesting google’s now using AI to demote Ai, which to me is the, the, vision of the future is bots writing content for bots to read, content.

[00:15:19] Goldstein: To rank the bot content on the bot website. For the bots.

[00:15:22] Matt: Exactly for bots to search.

[00:15:24] Goldstein: For bots to then read to us via, Amazon.

[00:15:32] Matt: Oh, man. So let me ask you, Seth, you’re a baby in this industry.

[00:15:37] Goldstein: It’s not that much.

[00:15:38] Matt: You’re gonna call me ancient. I’m gonna call you…

[00:15:40] Goldstein: I’m, I’m more, I’m more of a teenager in this industry.

[00:15:43] Matt: Right. You’re gonna call me ancient. I’m not gonna forget that.

[00:15:46] Goldstein: Yeah. Put it, put your Dukes. Exactly.

[00:15:49] Matt: What’s your biggest change you’ve seen in search since you’ve been in it?

[00:15:51] Goldstein: Oh, wow. That’s a good question because I’ve seen a bunch of different things. I mean, Google’s kind of started figuring out how to actually run their algorithm correctly. They still mess up people’s sites constantly with demoting them and then fixing them a week later after people have lost millions of dollars.

But, um, what I’ve noticed is that the community has gotten even more helpful with each other.

[00:16:12] Matt: Mm.

[00:16:13] Goldstein: Like if you go on there Twitter and, and ask SEO, Twitter, you don’t even have to use a hashtag to say, something happened with my SEO on my website and someone help. It’s very helpful community and the only other place I’ve seen a very good community like that, well, there’s two.

The podcasting community, Podcasting Twitter and WordPress. Twitter.

[00:16:30] Matt: Hmm.

[00:16:30] Goldstein: WordPress has a huge ecosystem and, but they focus on community, but they’re an actual community that they’re behind the software, they have a community and all that kinda stuff. SEO and podcasting, those two are very, free flowing, but if you follow the right people, not Neil Patel, I have my own beef and we’ll leave that one alone.

But, um, you follow most people on SEO, they’re gonna tell you the right stuff. So.

[00:16:53] Matt: Absolutely.

[00:16:55] Goldstein: I got you in stitches.

[00:16:56] Matt: You got me there. Oh man. One thing about the SEO community I’ve always found interesting is there’s always been a very helpful element to it.

[00:17:03] Goldstein: Yeah.

[00:17:03] Matt: I think for a number of years though, it kind of regressed

[00:17:06] Goldstein: It did. Got a little, got a little salty.

[00:17:09] Matt: Well, regressive and salty and I think a lot of it was, there were people there that wanted to figure it out, but had no experience in it.

[00:17:17] Goldstein: You have to dig little bit.

[00:17:19] Matt: A lot of people, they just wanted the keyword.

Yeah, they just wanted all the knowledge and, you know, tell me how this works. And, and it was a lot of just tell me, tell me, tell me. And then when you would say something and maybe they don’t agree with it, you’d get blasted. It was a lot of people who just wanted the knowledge of it, but weren’t ready to apply it.

[00:17:37] Goldstein: You have to apply it. It’s, it’s really like a language. If you don’t use it, you lose it.

[00:17:41] Matt: Ooh, that’s great.

[00:17:42] Goldstein: And you I’m gonna on, I Mordy Oberstein’s SEO ran on Thursday. This is probably dating the podcast, but our, top is gonna be, and just some, a axle tips in the title, but we’re not gonna say them on this show cause we meet as good kids today.

it’s not f-ing rocket science. It really isn’t. You sit down, you read some, you try some stuff, it doesn’t work. You don’t check it every day. You leave it for a week. It’s not that hard. It’s just time consuming. And you have to know the background. You can jump right in, but you can’t expect results right away. Cause Google is searching the whole internet. Internet’s kind of big , but they’re not gonna come back and index you the same day.

[00:18:18] Matt: Yeah.

[00:18:19] Goldstein: I did once write a top 10 list for, this is back one listicles, were big on Google, about the top 10, you know, good things about podcasting or something like that. Podcast production tips. Google must have been on my site at that moment. It got ranked as number three for that keyword, in the next minute.

It just showed up there. I was like, that is like 1 billion chance Google Bot’s gonna be on your site as you hit publish and then say, ooh, that’s good content. We’re gonna put you up there. I thought it was helpful content, but, um, the google helpful content update isn’t like it. I lost, that’s about that one, was, it was short of little lile and I was like, eh, I’ll put it out there for fun.

[00:18:55] Matt: Well that’s ultimate. I think even John Muir, I think, you know, he said you could have all the software, the SEO software, it’s gonna give you thousands of recommendations.

You just gotta know which one to apply at the right time. And I’m like, wow. He kind of condensed it down, but it comes down to experience.

[00:19:11] Goldstein: It does. And trying stuff out.

[00:19:13] Matt: Yeah.

[00:19:13] Goldstein: Oh, instead of asking like, apply it and, Oh no, my host like, got to us. Did. You know, then you apologize and they get listed.

[00:19:20] Matt: Well, and I’ll just say, you’re doing things, they get your site delisted. You are not applying logic and common sense.

[00:19:27] Goldstein: Or you did something wrong and you need to grol back to the Google overlord and say, we’re sorry. We’ll fix it up.

[00:19:34] Matt: That’s my biggest advice to people who want to get into digital marketing, is okay, even if you haven’t gotten hired somewhere, get cheap posting. And build a website.

[00:19:43] Goldstein: Exactly.

[00:19:43] Matt: Start putting content out there. Show your work. Show something that you’re passionate about. Start building something that’s your own, that you can keep with you for years, because what you’re gonna do is teach yourself some coding. You’re gonna teach yourself some layout.

You’re gonna teach yourself how these things work. And as you learn, it adds to your skills. And then you can start applying some things, try things, and that’s one thing have always said on, and, when it comes to SEO, there are a few things that are just good advice.

[00:20:12] Goldstein: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:20:13] Matt: But not everything is a hundred percent.

[00:20:16] Goldstein: Nothing’s a hundred percent not Google. Even Googles know what a hundred percent is, right? You can ask Google. Well, actually, you should probably ask ’em right now what is a hundred percent. And so it says but, I mean nothing at Google’s a hundred percent. I mean, even John Muir won’t even say like, he’s not even fully sure.

Like his search Off The Record Podcast. They’re constantly saying like, wait, we’re not sure about this. Where do we get back to you next week?

[00:20:35] Matt: And that’s what’s funny is Google is pretty siloed for being a tech company. They still have a lot of the hold over structures of a traditional company. It’s one thing that I, I always find very interesting. I always said that like the river of SEO isn’t very deep. It’s just about 10 miles wide.

[00:20:51] Goldstein: It’s like the Atlantic Ocean, honestly.

[00:20:52] Matt: Yeah. But it’s very shallow and what that means is you have to know a lot of things and you have to know…

[00:20:59] Goldstein: A little, a little bit of a lot.

[00:21:00] Matt: A little bit of alot and what dials affect, what measurements and what things you can do to tweak here and what’s that gonna do over there?

But even then, you know, and this is what kind of, what I mean by the a hundred percent too, I don’t know if this has been your experience too, Seth, that I would constantly run into people that they would look at competitors’ websites and just assume that they’re doing better.

[00:21:20] Goldstein: That’s human nature. You see someone you know, driving a beamer does not mean that number one, that’s a new Beamer. Number two, that if it’s a new beamer, does not mean they don’t live in a shack. Yeah. Let’s say they live in a nice big house, doesn’t mean their credit card debts not throw the freaking roof. Because people have different priorities.

[00:21:38] Matt: Absolutely.

[00:21:39] Goldstein: And that’s what it really boils down to. It’s human nature to think that, and our company’s doing better than you. Well, they may have a better design. Well that means they have a better designer… but like, I mean, it boils down to they had a better designer.

I know people that have horrible websites and they’re making bank.

[00:21:56] Matt: Yeah.

[00:21:56] Goldstein: And I wonder, what! how Is that possible? But you know, they might have good content on there and people are willing look past the design, I guess. I don’t know.

[00:22:05] Promo Break: Hey everyone, this is Matt. And thanks for listening. Just a quick break in the middle of the podcast here to let you know there’s a couple ways that you can connect with us. The first is That’s the learning site where you can see courses on analytics, courses on digital marketing across paid search seo, multiple disciplines. And then also you can connect with us on Slack. Go to Slack if you’re there and look for us at endless coffee Connect with us. I’d love to hear from you, hear what ails you in the realm of digital marketing. Are there courses you need information that you’d like to hear, or maybe some past guests that you’d like to hear more from? Thanks again for being a listener of the Endless Coffee Cup, and I look forward to hearing from you

[00:23:07] Matt: and that’s the thing that, this is just the, forward facing this is, what people see from the street.

And what goes on behind the scenes and this, you know, kind of get back to that entrepreneurship angle. It’s how you’re running the business.

[00:23:20] Goldstein: Yeah.

[00:23:20] Matt: It’s how you’re handling your customers. It’s, it’s how you’re building loyalty. What people see from the street they can’t see into the back office.

So just because yeah, someone might outrank you by a few slots or have a good design, doesn’t always mean they’ve got a better business.

[00:23:35] Goldstein: That’s so true.

[00:23:36] Matt: I think, uh, a lot of the SEO comes into that as well, that yes, I’m optimizing for rankings, but I’m optimizing for a long term business process, ultimately is what we’re going.

[00:23:48] Goldstein: It’s a process and it’s long term. We have to educate our customers saying like, look, this is nine overnight success.

You know, you may get some quick hits that are great and then you may have a month where it’s really far down well, that’s not when you quit. It’s like you don’t quit the stock market when things are down. You stay in there and ride the tide. It’s not stock device, but you know, generally you, you ride the tide .

When your doing great, you keep going. You don’t like say, oh, you send a contract for a year of scl, Right? We’re done. Peace. Wait a week and everything will tank. Cause you know, you’re not watching it. It’s more than just, actual boots on the ground working on stuff constantly.

[00:24:24] Matt: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:25] Goldstein: It’s tweaking something. Seeing whether that did, oh, that did, let’s do more of that. Oh, oh, it did something bad. Let’s, we think the other direction.

[00:24:31] Matt: And what I love about SEO is compared to any other, channel, any other method of marketing, is that it’s cumulative.

[00:24:39] Goldstein: It is.

[00:24:40] Matt: We saw this I think, uh, earlier this year when Instagram went from a photo site to a video site. They changed the algorithm. So anyone who’s been building their business with images, now all of a sudden video is favored and everything tanks.

[00:24:55] Goldstein: Yeah.

[00:24:55] Matt: There’s no cumulative advantage there , they decided to switch.

[00:24:59] Goldstein: And it’s rented media, which is like, don’t do your stuff on rented media and then be upset when you can be upset, but don’t be visibly upset when something goes be said to do something wrong.

Different because you don’t own your profile, buddy.


You’re renting that name. It might be free and you want, it’s free. Is there marketing to you? Very well though I may add. Those Facebook ads, those Instagram ads get me.

[00:25:22] Matt: That’s why I love it when people say my Instagram followers, I’m like, so they’re not yours.

Yeah, you just said they’re your Instagram followers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They belong to Instagram, let’s be clear. Yeah.

[00:25:34] Goldstein: The whistling, you borrow them.

[00:25:35] Matt: And, maybe 3% at a time. So I love what you said there. It’s, not rocket science. The more you, the more you get in, the more you work, the more you learn. I won’t say easy. It’s still challenging.

[00:25:47] Goldstein: It’s frustrating as well. I think it’s very, it’s frustrating. It’s not like on a website. You go to a website, you wanna change a word, and you change a word, and it happens instantly. You don’t control the Google bot, so you change something. You have to wait a week. You have to wait a month sometimes for it to come around and index your site and say, oh, they changed something. Let’s fix that in the index. So everyone’s like, well, why did you change? Why didn’t it change? We fixed it. Well, damn, wait a little bit, buddy. Patience.

[00:26:10] Matt: Let me ask you, I asked someone else this question, on the podcast probably about a year ago.

Do you think SEO is undervalued?

[00:26:16] Goldstein: Oh, God, yeah. Oh, absolutely. I mean, people see the price of SEO and they’re like, Oh my God, it’s so expensive .When you break it down, if you get, let’s say you’re selling widgets for $50,000 a piece. You’re paying an SEO $4,000 a month, one widget pays for it, then some.

A lot of people don’t realize that, oh, it’s expensive. If I get two sales in head, like really? it’s like, come on, people. It’s, yeah, it’s sticker shock, but it’s really not the expensive, I mean, I take that back. I mean, sometimes some of the big dogs like Super Interactive over in Philly.

I mean, they’re, but they’re also dealing with Adidas multinational companies. And still, and they’re like, the shoes are maybe a hundred bucks. So like maybe it might be 10,000 units sold equals one month with a company that like Sierra or Distilled or any those big guys. But they also, the following that allows them to get those units sold.

So it’s either quantity or quality, but you know, that kind of thing.

[00:27:13] Matt: Yeah, Yeah. Well, and what you’re doing there is kind of a strict ROI. You know, are, are we looking at an ROI within a year, three years, five, 10? We’re not even quantifying the branding. We’re not quantifying the external benefits of not, looking at the direct sales, but the indirect benefit of having the visibility, the reach, uh, you know,

[00:27:33] Goldstein: It’s a household name.

[00:27:35] Matt: Right? Absolutely. And that’s what I tell people. If you’re gonna look at a, an ROI calculation on seo, you need to look over 20 years.

[00:27:42] Goldstein: Oh, absolutely.

[00:27:43] Matt: Because if anything, anything you’ve done 10 years ago, it’s still working.

[00:27:47] Goldstein: Oh. I have a client who I, I worked area guide for an insurance company, and if they’ve an area guide, … area guide to become number one, still, I laugh.

I went back to my client, I’m like, we should probably update these cause it’s not called the R five anymore. It’s called the Lansdale Doyles 10 line, or the … paoli line. It’s the not r any our number or anything like that anymore. We gotta fix this. So we had to spend like a hundred bucks since I went in and real fast and fixed.

[00:28:14] Matt: Well, and that’s true. I mean, I’ve got sites. Yeah, I did. I worked on 20 years ago. They’re still just chugging away. Doing great.

[00:28:20] Goldstein: They haunt you. They haunt you. I have a few out there where they’re on free sites like you know the free website? Like…

[00:28:26] Matt: Oh No. You got Geo cities? You got Geo Cities website?

[00:28:30] Goldstein: Geo Cities is new. Those are, those are nukes. There’s other ones they, free is where I used to be where used to practice on, back in their late nineties. A little after Matt got into it, but. not that much farther. I mean, I got started getting what, on 98? You got into like 96.

[00:28:45] Matt: Yeah around there. Yeah.

[00:28:47] Goldstein: You couldn’t really get much more into it. Cause you’re back on BPSs at that point.

[00:28:51] Matt: Yep.

[00:28:51] Goldstein: Roy internet really came out in 96 ish, so Yeah.

[00:28:54] Matt: Yeah. Bbs and…

[00:28:55] Goldstein: they were old.?

[00:28:56] Matt: Yeah, I know. So my claim is my dad brought home a, a Commodore 64 ?

That was 1984.

[00:29:03] Goldstein: You’re a babe.

[00:29:04] Matt: I wasn’t a babe . I was a, was a teenager there and all of a sudden I had access to this amazing world of bulletin boards and Usenet. Probably not the best place for, uh, you know, a young teenager to go and, and learn about the world.

[00:29:19] Goldstein: I really think it wasn’t nearly, it was a lot more sanitized than people make it out.

[00:29:23] Matt: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. But anything you wanted to learn about anything was out there.

[00:29:26] Goldstein: Yeah, it still is. It’s just you know, surrounded by other ads, questionable material. Yeah. Yeah. There’s a lot more people on the net than there was back then, so it’s a little more, ify.

[00:29:35] Matt: But yeah, that, just opened my eyes to like, this is amazing. So it was just a natural progression all the way through of just learning more about this and, and building from there.

[00:29:44] Goldstein: Uh, it just fascinates me.

[00:29:45] Matt: Yeah. My original website is still on a floppy disk. I have got everything in…

[00:29:50] Goldstein: In fact, fact, it can now, it can be stored on a floppy disc.

[00:29:54] Matt: Right.

[00:29:55] Goldstein: To be any You can’t access the floppy disc cuz no one has a drive for it.

[00:29:59] Matt: .Exactly. I could probably go on eBay and find one, but I…

[00:30:02] Goldstein: yeah, so probably backed it up and put up on Dropbox or something. Score it somewhere or send to the internet archive or something.

[00:30:08] Matt: Right, Right.

[00:30:09] Goldstein: Probably actually it probably is on the way back machine if you look it up.

[00:30:11] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. I think it is.

[00:30:13] Goldstein: Yeah, if you and everyone can go look at this, and it goes the way back machine. You can see where it all.

[00:30:20] Matt: Wow.

[00:30:20] Goldstein: God, it’s painful.

[00:30:21] Matt: I know, right? I think this is one of the only areas like regular art, you do something art, you can still go back and appreciate it. Like, yeah, I was younger and I was learning this and all that, but you look at your old web designs and man, scientifically, I could tell you why that’s terrible.

So you do a lot of design, where do you think design is going? You know, we started out kind of like, push everything you’ve got onto the website.

[00:30:45] Goldstein: Oh God, now you don’t do that.

[00:30:46] Matt: You know, And now, now it’s kind of scaling back for a mobile presentation.

[00:30:50] Goldstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:51] Matt: Where, where is it going? I mean, is it gonna end up just being like four words in a picture on a, on every page?

[00:30:57] Goldstein: You still need content for Google, but you need to think about it in a way , you get to think about. Almost mobile first now.

[00:31:05] Matt: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:05] Goldstein: How are people gonna look at it on the phone cause most likely, most sites are looking at it on your phone. I’ve since seen analytics a lot lately that, um, mobile has surpassed desktop on sites that I’m shocked that there is not desktop prominent.

But design wise, it’s definitely designed for mobile. Don’t ignore responsive design. You need to make sure that your site does adjust . Cause, nothing’s worse than getting on our phone. Even my big Samsung note, 20 5G here by Samsung.

[00:31:33] Matt: Wow.

[00:31:33] Goldstein: But you know, even that pinching and assuming it’s not a fun activity.

[00:31:37] Matt: That’s one thing I’ve noticed. Even though the mobile rates are going up, I still see people coming back on desktop to convert. To do the checkout.

[00:31:48] Goldstein: It’s called a keyboard.

[00:31:50] Matt: Yeah.

[00:31:51] Goldstein: and fat thumbs.

[00:31:52] Matt: Yeah. And that’s part of it too. I think there is a, definite, if the screen is too small, then I’m afraid I’m not gonna see everything.

[00:32:00] Goldstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:01] Matt: And in a checkout process, I wanna make sure I’m seeing everything.

[00:32:06] Goldstein: Uh, and then it can, I’m not mashing the wrong button. Am I agreeing to five years instead of one? It’s kind of big, so.

[00:32:12] Matt: And that’s the thing. I’ve seen, the, the mobile checkout rates are, are climbing.

[00:32:16] Goldstein: Yeah.

[00:32:17] Matt: But there’s still a significant amount of people who will come on mobile first and then they switch over to desktop, and that’s how they complete the transaction.

Yeah. There’s still, I think, a lot usability wise. I don’t know. It’s, it’s kind of like this, flux of constantly learning how people will behave, but yet the behavior changes.

[00:32:38] Goldstein: All the time.

[00:32:39] Matt: Yeah. The device changes, the, the behavior changes, the speed changes. There’s so many factors and how people browse now, it’s probably to me, one of the biggest changes.

I remember looking at, session lengths of 15, 20 minutes that people would be on a website. Now it’s less…

[00:32:58] Goldstein: That, that’s insane.

[00:33:00] Matt: Yeah. Now it’s less than two minutes. An average session.

[00:33:02] Goldstein: Now get two. If you get two minutes, you’re like, Wow. It’s big. You’re, you’re ecstatic. If you get 30 seconds on a homepage, you’re like, wow. It’s pretty impressive.

[00:33:10] Matt: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:33:10] Goldstein: You like five seconds on a home page.

[00:33:13] Matt: Absolutely. That is great. So tell me a little more about the, the entrepreneurs Enigma. I love it. Uh, you know, that was, like I said, that was one of our conversations earlier this year.

[00:33:22] Goldstein: Yeah.

[00:33:23] Matt: And, uh, I love the Enigma because, uh, I called another friend of mine, what was it? I texted her on a Sunday. And she replied and I’m like, oh, you’re working on a Sunday too? She’s like, Of course I am. We’re both working on a Sunday. That’s, that’s the entrepreneurs’ enigma.

[00:33:38] Goldstein: Exactly. It is. It’s a giant puzzle. I mean, and I’m not a big fan of hustle culture. Cause hustle culture is overrated. You have to hustle the get stuff done. You also have to make time for work life balance. You have to make time to spend time with your kid, even if he drives you. You make time, which my kid does. But you know, you gotta spend time with the dog, the wife, everybody, you know, and see the family. You have to make time for yourself too.

And that does not, that does not involve your company. Your company has its times and you sometimes have to work late. But then take a break. Take a freaking break.

[00:34:14] Matt: That was great advice. I don’t like the whole hustle culture. Mentality. I don’t like the word hustle. Maybe it’s cuz I, you know, just growing up, it’s got more negative connotations that I’m, I’m taking advantage of someone and, and the way you described it, you’re taking advantage of yourself.

But to me is number one. Yeah. You’ve got, there has to be some level of enjoyment in what you’re doing. Uh, but then also, It’s got to pay the bills. I mean…

[00:34:40] Goldstein: it’s has the bills,.

[00:34:42] Matt: That’s part of it.

[00:34:43] Goldstein: And add, you add bills if you don’t take care of yourself.

[00:34:46] Matt: Yeah. It was funny, I, sat down to lunch with my dad. We, we had a little bit of time together and he asked me, he’s like, do you like what you do?

[00:34:53] Goldstein: Aw.

[00:34:54] Matt: I’m like, wow. You know, let, let’s start.

[00:34:57] Goldstein: That’s kinda loaded. Kinda loaded. Yeah.

[00:35:00] Matt: Uh, you know, my answer was absolutely, absolutely I do. I can’t imagine…

[00:35:05] Goldstein: Out of all people I know you’re very enthusiastic about what you do. oh. You know, and like, you know, I love what I do too, but I’m not even that enthusiastic as that that like. Yes, I do.

[00:35:16] Matt: I do. I, I love getting up and I love working. I love doing what I’m doing. I love the training aspect. you know, doing podcasts. To me I can’t believe how fun my job is.

[00:35:29] Goldstein: Wow. I feel bad sometimes. Like, I enjoy this. People like, while you’re working on a Saturday. Cause I’m like, I’m not working, I’m having fun.

[00:35:35] Matt: No. Yeah. It’s actually enjoyable. You know, the rest of the family, they’re, taking their time, they’re their downtime. I’m working, I actually do

I also do enjoy.

[00:35:42] Goldstein: That’s great to a family too, you know.

Yeah. Its you, you also have three girls. God bless.

[00:35:46] Matt: I have four girls. I have three girls at home. Yeah. Three girls at home.

[00:35:50] Goldstein: I have one boy and I’m, I’m like, oh boy, I’m done.

[00:35:53] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. No, the three of ’em are all teenage teenagers.

[00:35:56] Goldstein: Oh God.

[00:35:57] Matt: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:35:58] Goldstein: Boy or girl or they, regardless, teenage, that’s the key word there. Teenage. Teenage is tough. Nine’s tough too. I have a nine year old ooh, twin ooh, twins even worse.

[00:36:10] Matt: Good age.

[00:36:11] Goldstein: We’ll look back on it and we’ll miss it, but as everyone tells me, you’re gonna miss it.

I’m like..

[00:36:15] Matt: Yeah.

[00:36:15] Goldstein: Really? I’ll miss now.

[00:36:17] Matt: Oh, yes. Let me tell you, Seth, you will. I, I saw so the other day with, Babies and they’re trying to strap ’em down. Car seat.

And it looked like a bomb went off. Just they’re, they’re like, ugh. They’ve got the PTSD. I looked at both of them as, as my teenage girls are getting in the car, I’m like, I would trade anything…

[00:36:35] Goldstein: Cause, they can’t talk back.

[00:36:37] Matt: For 24 hours of that again.

[00:36:40] Goldstein: It’s something when that, when you’re more needed and not, my not year old doesn’t need me anymore.

[00:36:45] Matt: Yeah.

[00:36:45] Goldstein: He does. No, he needs me, but he doesn’t really need me. He won’t admit that he needs me like Right, right. Even your grown daughter who’s out then she moved to California.

[00:36:54] Matt: Yeah.

[00:36:54] Goldstein: I mean, she’s gonna need her daddy, but like it’s different.

[00:36:57] Matt: It is.

[00:36:57] Goldstein: To call you up and see some boy got picked on her or something like that, or dumped her or something like that kind of. stuff it’s not like, oh, I need you to change my diaper. It’s completely different. Yeah.

[00:37:07] Matt: Yeah. You’re the emotional support. For my sixteen old daughter, I know she needs the car when she needs me.

[00:37:13] Goldstein: She doesn’t need you. She needs the car

[00:37:15] Matt: . Yeah, yeah, yeah. The whole attitude changes when it’s the.

[00:37:17] Goldstein: Oh daddy, the mall man.

We have gotten the mall, man. I have really dated myself. Just, I just said the mall. Remember those days?

[00:37:27] Matt: I tell you what, that was the center of the culture at that point.

[00:37:29] Goldstein: Stranger Things.

[00:37:30] Matt: That’s amazing.

[00:37:31] Goldstein: When they, when they brought back the Star Court Mall and Stranger Things. Right. I was like, I remember that place.

[00:37:35] Matt: Yeah. I thought that was great. I thought that was fantastic to, to kind of explain that, like yeah, that was the center of life. That’s…

[00:37:41] Goldstein: Everything happened at the mall. Exactly. Man, we are all over to the shark.

[00:37:45] Matt: I know. We’ve gone all over to the, here.

[00:37:49] Goldstein: Dan’s coffee cup and we’re coughing.

[00:37:51] Matt: It is, we are talking. We’re jiving. We’re going through. I’m just fascinated with the past, you know, 25 years of history of search and what it has.

[00:37:59] Goldstein: Oh God.

[00:37:59] Matt: How it has changed, cultures.

[00:38:02] Goldstein: Yeah.

[00:38:03] Matt: It’s changed. One of my favorite quotes …

[00:38:05] Goldstein: Revolutions too. Revolutions.

[00:38:07] Matt: One of ..

[00:38:07] Goldstein: Cause the search.

[00:38:08] Matt: My favorite quotes is by Neil Postman. He was a professor of media studies at NYU. His quote is, we create our tools and our tools change us.

[00:38:18] Goldstein: Oh wow.

[00:38:19] Matt: Yeah and you know, one of the examples he gave is, is a farmer, you know, you, shape these tools so that you can work the ground. And then that tool is going to shape you. It shapes your hands, it gives you callouses, you know, it gives you a kink in your back.

[00:38:33] Goldstein: Yeah.

[00:38:34] Matt: And, and I love that because we look at our tools that we have shaped for our daily life.

We’ve got, you know, and I look at that, year of like 2015 was kind of like the banner year. You have a mobile device, you have social apps, and you have broadband access with cheap, data.

[00:38:50] Goldstein: Seriously, now it’s free data.

[00:38:52] Matt: Yeah. Yeah right to a point. Um.

[00:38:54] Goldstein: Do you, do you remember cell phones when you would drive into I go from Philly to New York.

[00:38:58] Matt: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:59] Goldstein: And I cross through the Lincoln Tunnel and my phone would stop working cause I didn’t pay for New York.

[00:39:03] Matt: Oh wow.

[00:39:04] Goldstein: I didn’t pay for the New York, I only paid for the regional plan.

[00:39:07] Matt: Wow.

[00:39:08] Goldstein: Long distance. Right,

[00:39:09] Matt: Right. Long distance. That was the biggest.

[00:39:12] Goldstein: I called you old, am just as old.

[00:39:15] Matt: But that’s what I mean. So like we’ve shaped new tools.

[00:39:18] Goldstein: Yeah.

[00:39:19] Matt: And it’s amazing to see how those tools shape us. I was teaching a class yesterday. I asked people to put down, how many times did you use Google yesterday estimate. And then I had them open up, what was it? My dot.

Which showed them what searches they made.

[00:39:39] Goldstein: Oh, them Hopefully not screen sharing.

[00:39:40] Matt: No, no, no. It was kind of like, if you want to share you can, but it showed them the videos they watched. And by the way, if you’re using an Android phone, it will show you what apps you use, what music you listen to, what contacts you went through.

[00:39:51] Goldstein: That’s terrifying.

[00:39:52] Matt: I mean, it, it just shows everything. And it was really interesting cuz so many of ’em underestimated how many times they used Google.

[00:40:00] Goldstein: I’m go look after the show, I’m gonna look.

[00:40:02] Matt: Yeah, but it’s just

[00:40:04] Goldstein: I’ll slack you…

[00:40:07] Matt: So how’s it changed you? I mean, that’s, that’s the question I love to ask people, how have our new tools shaped us?

[00:40:14] Goldstein: Oh my God. All I know is that I need blue light glasses, which I should be where I am right now. But I mean, I need blue light glasses, my eyesight’s kind worse. Like I came to my back from looking over so much and like, I mean like we’re all going from like, over at not the waist, but like at the, the chest area.

[00:40:31] Matt: Yeah.

[00:40:31] Goldstein: Looking at our phones, you know, and we all need all pots, you know, Bellys, you know, so we have a little holders for our phone so you can text , eat more. So you can hold your phone better.

[00:40:42] Matt: Oh no. Maybe you should just start wearing it like a necklace and that way it’s always..

[00:40:47] Goldstein: That make you Roy hunched up like this.

[00:40:48] Matt: Yeah. Even the search technology, it’s really interesting. Um, you go to Google Trends and you can see, like we were talking about, near me, just how no one ever searched on it ever before. And then around 2012 2015 it starts crawling and then it just shoots up.

[00:41:06] Goldstein: And then there’s a dentist at the very top.

Yeah. So he hopes.

[00:41:12] Matt: Absolutely. Seth. Hey, I’ve gotta tell you, this has been an absolutely enjoyable conversation.

[00:41:16] Goldstein: So much fun. Yeah.

[00:41:17] Matt: Oh, absolutely. I, I knew, uh, we’d had no problem filling some time here. Just, uh,

[00:41:21] Goldstein: Oh, we really put some time. Yeah.

[00:41:22] Matt: A little bit of reminiscing, but hopefully there’s been a little bit of, good information we’ve gotten out here, especially about SEO.

[00:41:29] Goldstein: Yeah.

[00:41:29] Matt: And, uh, you know, being patient, with what’s happening and also kind of keeping an eye on what Google’s doing.

Well, Seth, thank you so much for making the time to, uh, join us here. And, uh, how can people find you if they wanna know a little more information, about, I mean, you’ve got a lot of content be pushed out.

[00:41:44] Goldstein: Oh, yeah, yeah. I like, just look for Seth Goldstein and I’m one of them up, up there. But, um, go to goldstein

That’s the agency, good entrepreneurs, that’s the podcast. And then, Seth Goldstein on Twitter. I’m not at Seth. That’s much more famous Seth Goldstein than me. I get his tweets though, because you always think he got Seth Goldstein. No, but he’s just Seth on Twitter. Nice guy. Talks about the intention economies worth following, but not me.

And on LinkedIn. This, I’m, it’s actually my personal page. I’m too scared to change. It’s something more

[00:42:20] Matt: I do the same thing. I’ve got the same thing. I did name of the company.

[00:42:26] Goldstein: I did, I did it before. It was a company pages.

[00:42:29] Matt: Ah.

[00:42:30] Goldstein: Way back when. Back in the early odds.

[00:42:32] Matt: Right.

[00:42:33] Goldstein: And I can’t change it now. They don’t give you 3 0 1, Oh my God.

[00:42:36] Matt: Yep. Right. That would be nice, if they did, I’d appreciate it. Right. Seth, it’s been a privilege. It’s been a pleasure having you here and, uh, really enjoyed the conversation and dear your listener, I hope you enjoyed the conversation as well.

I look forward to, uh, enjoying the next conversation over coffee here at the endless Coffee Cup next week.

You’ve been listening to the Endless Coffee Cup. If you enjoyed this episode, share it with somebody else. And of course, please take just a moment and rate or review us at your favorite podcast service. If you need more information, contact me at Site Logic Marketing dot. Thanks again for being such a great listener.

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Seth Goldstein

Seth Goldstein

Seth Goldstein, CEO Goldstein Media

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