[Podcast] SEO is Changing...But How?

Social Media Careers: The Challenges and Rewards

Examining the diverse skill set of a Social Media Marketer

SEO is Changing…But How?

Welcome to the Endless Coffee Cup podcast, where we freshly brewed insights on Digital Marketing. Matt Bailey is joined by long-time industry friend and SEO expert, Greg Jarboe.

In the latest espresso shot of wisdom, Matt and Greg dive deep into SEO’s evolving landscape, from leveraging news links and press releases to the subtleties of keywords and how they are used by audiences. Greg presents his content marketing matrix, a tool crucial for audience-tailored strategies. They unpacked the importance of marketing and market research in SEO.

The discussion underscores a pivotal point: Google’s algorithm updates. With over 4,700 changes in a single year, the landscape is a testament to the dynamism inherent in the field of SEO. The advice to SEO professionals is hinged on prioritizing their target audience first, then understanding the multifaceted nature of search behavior, including emergent avenues like audio searches and connected TV.

The core tenets of SEO remain steadfast, focused on meeting the audience’s needs. Yet, the search behavior itself is a morphing entity, much like how the iPhone revolutionized user interactions.

So if you’re looking to keep pace with the relentless changes and optimize your online presence, stir in these tips and let your strategy percolate to success. Thank you for tuning in, and don’t forget to share and rate this blend for more robust conversations. Keep brewing excellence!

Content in this episode:

[00:03:23] SEO misconceptions and reality.
[00:08:05] SEO trends over the years.
[00:10:49] SEO strategy variances.
[00:18:05] Learning by doing.
[00:22:48] Evolution of SEO.
[00:25:11] The evolving SEO skill set.
[00:31:02] Audience behavior changes.
[00:36:07] Market Segmentation.
[00:39:26] The evolution of SEO.
[00:43:30] The perception of “cheap.”
[00:51:28] Press releases for SEO.
[00:56:07] Research on female behavior.
[00:59:57] Content Marketing Matrix
[01:03:27] Developing brand voice and tone.

Show Notes:

[Article] 7 Strategic SEO Insights & Tactical Tips For 2024 And Beyond

Transcript: SEO is Changing…But How?

[00:00:00] Greg: Life would be simple if you have one audience, one of the things that I go looking for in market segmentation is not something that they teach you in SEO, but boy, it’s something that SEOs should learn. It’s a really old form of marketing, but boy, is it effective. And so. With a recent client I was working with, we said, okay, you’re focused on this target audience.

[00:00:30] Greg: That’s great. Let me show you the other three target audiences that you’re ignoring. So if there are four different kinds of people who are using different search terms to get to what you offer, and you’re only optimizing for one of them? You’re basically letting your competitors scoop up the other three.

[00:00:51] Greg: Welcome to Endless Coffee Cup, a regular discussion of marketing news, culture, and media for our complex digital lifestyle. Join Matt [00:01:00] Bailey as he engages in conversation to find insights beyond the latest headlines and deeper understanding for those involved in marketing. Grab a cup of coffee, have a seat, and thanks

[00:01:11] Matt: for joining.

[00:01:11] Matt: Well, hello and welcome to another edition of the Endless Coffee Cup podcast. As always, I’m your host, Matt Bailey. And as most of the time, I’ve got Greg Jarboe back with us. Greg, how are you doing today?

[00:01:23] Greg: Well, I’m fine, Matt. I want you to know I’m wearing my Michigan, uh, gear maize and blue because guess who beat Ohio State Buckeyes this year.

[00:01:34] Matt: You have been waiting for this. You, you, you have just waiting for the chance to pull that out. And Greg, I don’t, I don’t blame you if you wear it for the next year, you know, it’s okay. They earned it.

[00:01:49] Greg: I want you to know that it’s, it’s not like we are gloating. But it’s such a rare occurrence, we like to celebrate the ups because there’s a [00:02:00] lot of downs.

[00:02:01] Matt: Well, and two ups in a season, you beat Ohio State and got the National Championship, which I thought it was interesting that even the way you introduced it, it was more about being Ohio State than it was getting the National Championship.

[00:02:13] Greg: Oh, National Championship, that’s round off air. That’s, you know. I was

[00:02:18] Matt: rooting for you, you know, you guys made the National Championship game last year, but.

[00:02:24] Matt: Yeah, or no, you did, that’s right. How state was in the national championship game, but couldn’t close it. But yeah, I was rooting for you. Okay. Yeah, I was, I was, I was, I was even rooting, you know, a little for Detroit. I would have loved to seen Detroit.

[00:02:38] Greg: Oh, I have, I have so many friends from Michigan who were brokenhearted.

[00:02:46] Greg: To watch the Lions lose, it’s miserable.

[00:02:51] Matt: You know, I, I, I’m happy they got close, but yes, I, I would have much rather seen, uh, Lions in the Super Bowl against [00:03:00] somebody. I think the only reason I would have watched was for the Lions, but after it was the 49ers and Chiefs, I’m like, well, we’ve seen this before.

[00:03:10] Greg: Yes. And we saw it again. Yeah.

[00:03:15] Matt: Well, Greg, the reason I invited you on is we, you know, as listeners, if you, if you’ve been a listener of the show, you know, Greg has joined me many times and we actually spent a number of shows trying to define social media, social media marketing, but Greg now, you know, what’s on my list.

[00:03:31] Matt: And apparently it was on your list as well, because I mentioned to Greg about, Hey, what about. Search engine optimization. What about SEO? And Greg had already written an article that was going out and had been asked to refresh an article that he had written a couple of years prior. So Greg, you and I are both on the same wavelength here when, uh, considering search engine optimization and what is going on in this industry.

[00:03:58] Greg: Well, [00:04:00] yes, this is an old topic and so a lot of people think, Oh, isn’t this like cut and dried now? And the answer is no,

[00:04:09] Matt: no. Oh, you know, the more I go online and you know, it’s not like I’m actually looking for the SEO advice. It just seems to find me maybe through articles and what I follow. But I feel like Greg, we are, we are combating the same misinformation.

[00:04:27] Matt: But in greater amounts than we were 10, 15, even 20 years ago, the same misinformation is out there, but I’m just amazed at how many people are pushing it and it just never seems to go away.

[00:04:44] Greg: Well, there are people with different agendas and you know, fair enough. Guess what? They don’t go away from year to year.

[00:04:51] Greg: They, they still find opportunities to come back and pedal there. Whatever their version of reality, some of them are trying [00:05:00] to sell you something. Others are just, I think, angry, you know, fair enough.

[00:05:07] Matt: What are they angry at Greg?

[00:05:10] Greg: Well, let me tell you about journalists. Cause they’re a group I hang out with a lot.

[00:05:15] Greg: And it turns out Google ate journalism’s, uh, lunch and then went on to eat their breakfast. So daily newspapers now have about half as many journalists writing for them as they were writing 15 to 20 years ago. The trade press has basically disappeared, you know, and, and, and so you have this angry group of people who say, I used to have a career who every time they can take down Google, there’s sort of a, you know, an opportunity to, to get back.

[00:05:52] Greg: So, so there is a revenge factor.

[00:05:56] Matt: Yeah, we had, I think a couple of months ago we had Greg Crable [00:06:00] on and he is very active in the publishing industry, used to work for Kiplinger’s and what Google has done to, like you said, the trade press especially, uh, but small publishers. And now with AI and how Google is choosing to use and utilize AI, they still want everything for free.

[00:06:21] Matt: From everybody and order to turn it around and make money with it. And, uh, it’s one of those, I feel like with publishers, it’s, it’s that scene out of star Wars where Lando says, you know, this deal is rotten. And, and Raider turns around and says, I have altered the deal. Pray. I do not alter it any further.

[00:06:41] Matt: And that is Google right there.

[00:06:45] Greg: Okay. Well, but it turns out. Darth Vader actually turns out to be good at the end. So who knows how this particular universe will unfold.

[00:06:57] Matt: That’s wonderful. [00:07:00] That is true. That is true. We’ll have to take that into account. I don’t see that happening here with, with Google or, you know, we could even say big tech, but Greg, let’s talk about some of the things as I read through your article and dear listener, I am going to put this in the show notes, a link to the article.

[00:07:15] Matt: I highly recommend it. Because it was interesting because what you are writing is a refresh of an article of 10 strategic SEO insights and tactical advice. And now, now originally the article was for 2021. Then it was refreshed again for 2023. And then you did it again for 2024. This gets right into my, I love the annual Greg, can you tell us what the trends are, which, which happens every year.

[00:07:45] Greg: And it’s, it’s worth noting that the first. One that I wrote was the top three trends. And then I went to the top 10 trends and the current article is about the top seven trends. And so I don’t know if I [00:08:00] undershot the first year and overshot the second year. And now I’ve got sort of this, uh, you know, somewhere in the middle kind of approach, but it, it turns out that from year to year to year.

[00:08:12] Greg: One of the things that we have trouble dealing with is how many moving pieces are there. And I am reminded of this because, guess what? We had a lot of weather forecasters here in New England who got the snow forecast wrong this week. And everyone says, how could you get the weather forecast wrong? And the answer is, excuse me, there’s a lot of different things moving around.

[00:08:41] Greg: And, you know, it’s, we can’t predict the weather. So what we’re going to predict Google. It’s like, Oh yeah, sure. Piece of cake.

[00:08:52] Matt: Absolutely. I love it. I. Yeah. And like, you know, you’ve been in the Midwest, you know, if you predict the weather correctly, that’s a, that’s [00:09:00] an astonishing feat getting it wrong.

[00:09:02] Matt: That’s just part of the job.

[00:09:04] Greg: Well, and predicting it on the, how, how do I say this in new England? Normally you could just say whatever the weather was in Ohio yesterday. We’re probably going to see today. One might assume that, but then there are all these weather patterns that come up the Atlantic coast and push the Midwestern weather pattern in one direction or another.

[00:09:28] Greg: And so, yeah, again, the metaphor here is search. If there were a single set of factors, life would be easy. If there were two or three factors, life would be simple. If there were seven to 10 factors, now you’re beginning to get into the right zone of saying, so what do we do?

[00:09:54] Matt: Well, I love how you, you frame that because you know, I, I used to tell [00:10:00] people the river of SEO is very, very, very wide.

[00:10:05] Matt: It’s just not very deep. And I think different from other disciplines, such as paid search, such as email marketing, you can even throw social media into that. You’re not going to get a checklist and they exist. There’s checklists of 200 things you need to do. But the thing is that. You may have that checklist and someone else may have that checklist and someone else may have that checklist, but how you do the things on the checklist is going to vary greatly depending upon what industry and depending upon, let’s even say, depending upon the objective of the business, you can be in the same industry as three other companies, but how you go about selling yourself, how you are your strategy in marketing.

[00:10:55] Matt: It’s going to determine how you do those maybe seven things, [00:11:00] but yet there’s still about 200 things that you need to do right technically. But on top of that, and probably one of the best things I heard is you got to do the basics, but then do the basics clever. And that’s how you build a good strategy.

[00:11:14] Greg: And Matt, you may or may not remember this, but you and I actually gave a presentation, believe it or not at SES Chicago. And we did it. Oh, I don’t know, maybe 15 years ago. Yeah. That long ago where we actually talked about a metaphor. And I actually recommended a book to SEOs who wanted to understand what they did and the circumstance.

[00:11:42] Greg: And I saw, I told them to read Mark Twain’s Life on the Mississippi, because there’s your broad river, as you were talking about, but shallow. And the answer is navigating your steamboat. Up the river is an entirely different [00:12:00] experience than navigating down. Going up in the spring is different than coming down in the summer.

[00:12:06] Greg: Oh, by the way, the river has a tendency to change its course. Oh, by the way, you know, all of a sudden trees fall over and you have new snags. The answer is Mark Twain captures being a riverboat pilot and trying to quote, learn the river. And he’s doing it. On a shift, so you learn, you know, eight hours of the river and then you go sleep or you go do other things and then you come back and you learn another eight hours of the river.

[00:12:38] Greg: And oh, by the way, you’re only learning that river. In one direction. And, and so part of the reason why there is an apprenticeship that Twain has to go through is, is that, you know, it changes and it’s always different and welcome to SEO. Yeah. [00:13:00] [00:13:00] Matt: Well, and I always thought SEO should be more of an apprenticeship type of learning.

[00:13:04] Matt: I’m amazed at how many people will go to an, you know, go through an SEO course and then all of a sudden, next thing I know, they’re a freelancer. And I have to shake my head at that because what makes an SEO good is the exposure to multiple business objectives, multiple types of businesses, doing e commerce, doing B2B, doing, you know, working in all of these areas, because how you do the SEO.

[00:13:35] Matt: Will greatly depend on those areas, those businesses, those industries. And, and so apprenticeship is going to be the way you’re going to learn that, but then there’s the activity of SEO. And then as you and I know, there’s the business of SEO on the other side.

[00:13:52] Greg: Yeah. Or as Google clarified in the past year, which is again, one of the changes that we keep navigating.[00:14:00] [00:14:00] Greg: Is they suddenly changed eat, which we sort of understood as, you know, uh, expertise and authoritativeness and trustworthiness. Got it. All right. They added an extra E in the front. So it became double eat. And the extra E was for experience. And so increasingly, even the engineers at Google are recognizing that the person creating the content.

[00:14:29] Greg: If they are smart, but not experienced. Can do some really dumb stuff. So one of the things that I think all of us are learning is that yeah, yeah, yeah, Google changes. But interestingly enough, one of the things that they’ve done since sort of in incorporating machine learning into how they create their algorithms is, is they are starting to try to figure out what Gives [00:15:00] humans, what is a signal that shows that this human creating this content has experience as well as expertise and authoritativeness and trustworthiness.

[00:15:12] Matt: The thing is, and, and, and while I, I like those terms and you know, we’re, we’re how they are somewhat nebulous. In terms of you cannot scientifically measure, and that’s what Google’s doing. They are scientifically measuring an abstract concept. And I could ask, you know, someone, a person, What makes this person more authoritative than another?

[00:15:37] Matt: And if I’m comparing two people, Cognitively, I can figure that out. If I ask you to compare 200 people and tell me who’s the most trustworthy. All of a sudden now this is out of the scope of your capability and now we’ve lost or we don’t even have the language to come up with a proper measurement or defining of that many people.[00:16:00] [00:16:00] Matt: So it’s interesting to me that we’re taking these adjectives. And Google is developing an algorithm to measure and assess each of these things a little scary. I understand what they’re doing and I feel like these are just the adjectives they have come up to describe what they’re doing rather than rather than saying, you know, we’re going to measure this.

[00:16:22] Matt: It’s just, you know, let’s just label it

[00:16:24] Greg: that. Yeah. Yeah. At the end of the day, this is engineers creating things. And I’m, I’m just glad that there are now translators trying to translate what the engineers are doing into English, because in the old days they didn’t do that very well, and then. Along came Matt Cutts and he sort of did it on the QT disguised as Google guy, but you know, somebody was at least trying to explain what the heck they were trying to accomplish.

[00:16:55] Greg: Today there actually are a number of [00:17:00] Members of the Google staff who are helping to translate what they’re trying to do. They’re not trying to give away the secret sauce or the let people game the algorithm, but at least there are people who are providing some guidance and some help again. Over time, you learn which ones you can trust.

[00:17:22] Matt: Well, and I get the sense almost reading between the lines of some of what is being said, that the response to these people from Google who are helping to translate this is that people are expecting this how to list of 200 things. And that’s how they interpret SEO is just tell me how to do it. Just tell me how to do it.

[00:17:48] Matt: And I think John Muir is one who I, to me, he has lost his patience more than others. And so that’s why I like watching him is because his response seems to be just do it, [00:18:00] just build a site and practice it. You know, and that’s why I love it. It just seems to be so direct sometimes that you’re not going to learn it by studying it.

[00:18:13] Matt: You’re going to learn it by doing it. And there seems to be a very specific divide in people who are just like, give me this knowledge, give me this knowledge, and it’s not something that you can read in a book. Ultimately, it’s something that you have to experience.

[00:18:32] Greg: Well, that’s fine, but as you’ve also mentioned, it’s, um, we’ve got paying clients who expect business results.

[00:18:41] Greg: And so, again, you, you just layer all of that together. And you realize that, yeah, it’s, it’s hard. Yeah, it keeps changing. But guess what? Let me go back to those people who were angry about Google. The journalists. Journalists [00:19:00] went to journalism school not to learn how to write yesterday’s news. But how to write today’s news and guess what?

[00:19:08] Greg: Today’s news is different than yesterday’s news, isn’t it? That’s what makes it news. And so if you can learn and study how to deal with a novel situation, you learn the right questions to ask. Yeah. To get a new answer, then you also have the capability of explaining that to an audience. And whether that audience is the people who are visiting your website or that audience are the people internally who are paying the bills, you know, communication is important.

[00:19:43] Greg: So guess what? This is an ongoing process. What I will say, because you and I’ve been around long enough to know this is 20 years ago. SEO was a much more technical process, [00:20:00] right? And 20 years later, now, all of a sudden we’re talking about experience and, uh, you know, uh, trustworthiness and like stuff that nobody talked about 20 years ago.

[00:20:12] Greg: And for a lot of SEOs, that’s a sea change. That’s like, wait, they just rewrote my job description. And it is. It is. One of the things that may have attracted you into SEO a long time ago was I have technical skills. Well, now you have to have judgment. Now you have to have experience. Now you have to have, you need to apply this to somebody’s business model.

[00:20:42] Greg: It’s like those weren’t skills I needed back in the early days. And that’s right. It morphed.

[00:20:50] Matt: Yeah, it’s been interesting, you know, and looking through the OMCP requirements and, and some of the things that, you know, Even [00:21:00] as you were saying, the much more technical side of things, I can’t remember the last time I’ve run into something like duplicate content.

[00:21:06] Matt: Now, when you have WordPress is over 40 percent of the websites online, that takes care of a multitude of problems. I, early days, it was duplicate content. It was canonicalization. It was, as you said, you could make a living. Just focusing on the technical problems and technical issues and getting a website spidered.

[00:21:33] Matt: And it’s, it’s interesting. And you probably remember this back in the day, there was always a little tension in between the groups. Like here were the more technical. Side of SEO. And here’s the more I would call the writing side, the journalistic side, those that focused on writing good content and, and optimizing it and developing it, and, and then, you know, kind of off in the corner where the business people, we need to [00:22:00] show client results, we need to apply this.

[00:22:03] Matt: And there was always a little bit of tension among the groups, but yet it was a friendly tension. And now, yes, it, the. Pressure and the spotlight is on that content piece. The content and the business piece is what has risen now as being the most significant. In fact, I, most of the SEOs I run into right now do not deal in any shape or form in the technical side.

[00:22:30] Matt: And in fact, they know very little about it because it’s just not as prevalent.

[00:22:36] Greg: That’s true, but it didn’t go away, right? It didn’t go away. I, um, I live in a small town. We only have about, uh, 23, 000 people here and the town created a page on their website about where you could find EV chargers. In the community.

[00:22:57] Greg: Okay. Really useful information. If, [00:23:00] if you’re trying to charge up your, your, your electric vehicle. Okay. But they put all the information in an image.

[00:23:11] Matt: Yeah.

[00:23:11] Greg: Yeah. Yep. And it’s like, guys, guys. This, this is useful information. I should be able to find it in the search. You’re not in the top results. Why aren’t you in the top results? Why is the top result a company that basically lists everything in kilometers and says, um, that this is information for the city.

[00:23:37] Greg: Of Acton, we’re the town of Acton, pardon me. And oh, by the way, it’s based in Les Etats Unis, which is like, that’s French for United States. It’s like, who are these people writing this content? Why are they ranked number one? So. The answer is sometimes the basics can still come back to

[00:23:57] Matt: bite you. Oh, absolutely.

[00:23:59] Matt: Absolutely. And I, [00:24:00] and it’s, that’s what distinguishes, you know, a lot of the practitioners and especially the practitioners who have that experience, they can identify those problems within seconds. They’ve got that mental checklist of what to work through when they spot that problem. And I, I think, you know, and you and I could probably both speak, you know, that there are companies that all SEOs do actually what they have is writers who’ve been trained in SEO, which I absolutely love, but they don’t touch any of that.

[00:24:30] Matt: And a mutual friend of ours worked for a very, very large company. And. noticed that there were technical issues that were preventing a great deal of content from being indexed and spidered. And when he went to say something about it, the response was essentially that’s none of your business, hands off what the programmers do.

[00:24:54] Matt: And he’s trying to make a case that there is legacy code there that doesn’t need to be there. And it’s [00:25:00] causing our pages to load. You know, aggressively slow and they’re like, it’s the way it’s been done. Leave it alone. So we’ve got both sides of that.

[00:25:11] Greg: Yeah. Yeah. So you’ve just added a new item to the SEO, uh, skill set or job description, which is, Oh, by the way, you also need to be a master of internal politics.

[00:25:23] Greg: Yes, and I’m not sure they’re teaching internal politics in any of the courses these days.

[00:25:28] Matt: No, no, I, well, in the, I’ll let you in. I’m developing a course on SEO, which is why I’m, you know, it’s you’re writing articles on developing courses and, and so it’s, yeah, for, for most. And that is one of the. Actually that it’s going to be a theme throughout the course is how do you present this?

[00:25:47] Matt: Our good friends at the, the OMCP in a recent job survey found that 20 to 25 percent of an SEO professionals time is spent communicating. [00:26:00] So yeah, right. Is if a fourth or a fifth of your time is presenting your strategy and results, that’s an area, as you mentioned, it is many are deficient in and being able to communicate that properly.

[00:26:13] Matt: Concisely and persuasively that those are my, my three adjectives I’m using there as well where you could be writing Google’s algorithm. It’s not alliterated yet. I haven’t figured it out. That’s true. That’s true.

[00:26:27] Greg: Okay. So let’s then dive into some of the things that are currently reshaping Google as we knew it because you know, uh, not only does Google change its doodle, Frequently so that it doesn’t have a static logo.

[00:26:45] Greg: That’s actually a good metaphor for, by the way, their algorithm. Last time they reported the data, which is actually over a year old. Now, when I shared this information with the client I’m working with lately, I said, yeah, they [00:27:00] just changed their algorithm 4, 700 times in 2022. Mm hmm. And I realized that’s old data, but they haven’t released the 2023 data yet.

[00:27:09] Greg: Right. Right. And they went changed it four thousands. That’s a lot. And the answer is, yeah, that’s why you might see something different this afternoon than what you saw this morning. So. Okay. How do you survive in this world? If, if the news is coming at a faster torrent, and by the way, I’ve, I’ve worked at a weekly newspaper where the news happened on a weekly basis.

[00:27:33] Greg: I’ve worked at a daily newspaper where the news came once a day. And then I worked at a radio station where the news came every hour. So I get the sense, I, you know, I have a little feel for, yeah, we’re at the hourly, uh, update kind of how’s Google working this hour? One of the things that I advise SEOs to do is not start with Google, [00:28:00] right?

[00:28:01] Greg: And I know that’s, that’s a real hard thing for SEOs not to do. It’s like, but it’s all about Google. And so it’s like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Start with your. Target audience. Yes. Who are you trying to reach? Cause guess what? They’re the ones who will type in the cryptic little words. If they’re still typing into the search box or if they’re using their smartphone, they’re the ones who are now speaking and using audio to, to search for what they’re looking for.

[00:28:30] Greg: Oh, by the way, they’re also starting to look for things in places you might not have expected because guess what? We can now watch YouTube. On our connected TV and guess what? When we got to YouTube last night, we started conducting a search on our connected TV for the video. We were looking to watch.

[00:28:56] Greg: It’s like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, people can do a [00:29:00] search on their television. For a YouTube video, it’s that search. It’s like, yeah, yeah, yeah. So start with your audience first. And that’s a hard thing. That’s a new thing that most SEOs don’t have, you know, grounding in, but I would strongly say, start there.

[00:29:20] Greg: Because it’s going to shape everything else that you think about.

[00:29:24] Matt: Absolutely. And you know, it’s funny, you know, as we dig into this and even looking at your list of things, you know, trends, and I feel like I could have also asked you, Greg, what are things that haven’t changed? And that list would be just as relevant because, and I would say there are in the world of SEO, just as in our world, there are countries that You can trust.

[00:29:52] Matt: There are countries that, that go about things their own way. There are countries that deliberately go against the grain. It’s the [00:30:00] same in SEO. That there are groups of SEOs who, whose sole purpose is to re engineer the algorithm. Uh, and as you mentioned, it changes multiple times a day. Go ahead and do it.

[00:30:15] Matt: But it doesn’t change drastically. It does not change dramatically. It’s just fine tuning. It’s testing. It’s well, I like to say it’s around the edges, but the center is going to remain very much the same as it has for many, many, many years. I always tell people the people that say it changes every day are the ones trying to sell you something.

[00:30:41] Matt: It’s because the core. Is still the same and the core to many of us in the SEO world. And I’m, I’m going to, you know, start putting some borders around this have been, like, as you said, who’s the audience, what do they need and how do I provide it to them? [00:31:00] And that’s where we start.

[00:31:02] Greg: That’s right. And so we’ve watched the audience do new things over the years.

[00:31:09] Greg: One was the advent of the iPhone, and suddenly the audience could now get at the information on the Internet, not through their laptop or their desktop, but they could do it with a device in their hand. The audience, again, it’s off the radar for many SEOs, but the audience back during the pandemic, when everyone was locked down, started spending more time watching things on their connected TV or going out and buying connected TVs to watch things on.

[00:31:41] Greg: And so now there’s yet another device that they can get access to that internet information with. And so the audience is changing its behavior over time and you need to keep track of that. But by and large, and this is, this is the thing that I’ve been [00:32:00] sharing with new clients. I show them some research that, uh, folks at Google Consumer Research did, um, basically of the United Kingdom, but it, it, it’s, it has some universal ramifications.

[00:32:15] Greg: It was called, uh, the messy middle. Yes. And they were doing studies on, oh, I forget, uh, it’s like 210 different buying journeys in, you know, 41 different product categories. But basically what they did is they tried to see how people make decisions, particularly when they’re using search. And it was messy.

[00:32:40] Greg: It was like, you know, there’s not a single pattern that says they do X, they do Y, they do Z, you’re done. But when they started analyzing it, they came up with an interesting loop de loop process. It looks like people go through an exploration phase. I’m [00:33:00] going to find out what’s out there on the thing that I’m trying to decide on.

[00:33:07] Greg: And then there’s an evaluation phase. Okay, I found several things that are out there. Which one? Is the one that I’m probably going to adopt. And sometimes they’ll go through that loop de loop process more than once, because this is complicated. I’m going to go back and it could be anything from travel to buying tech products to, you know, you name it, you know, deciding which university to attend.

[00:33:34] Greg: So whatever that process is, goes through exploration and evaluation. And the fun thing that the Google research is shared with us, human mortals will also happen to practice SEL.

[00:33:55] Matt: Hey everyone. This is Matt and thanks for listening. Just a quick [00:34:00] break in the middle of the podcast here to let you know, there’s a couple of ways that you can connect with us. The first is learn. sitelogic. com. That’s the learning site where you can see courses on analytics. Courses on digital marketing across paid search, SEO, multiple disciplines.

[00:34:19] Matt: And then also you can connect with us on Slack. Go to Slack if you’re there and look for us at endlesscoffeecup. slack. com. Connect with us. I’d love to hear from you. Hear what ails you in the realm of digital marketing. Are there courses you need information that you’d like to hear, or maybe some past guests at you’d like to hear more from, thanks again for being a listener of the endless coffee cup.

[00:34:47] Matt: And I look forward to hearing from you.

[00:34:52] Greg: Is that there are some keywords that are dead giveaways as to which phase somebody is in. Right. So [00:35:00] one of those dead giveaways is the word BEST. I’m no longer just looking for You know, a podcast to listen to. I want the best podcast on SEEO. Oh, who, who, who? Who offers that? I, Hmm. Gosh. There’s this guy out in Ohio.

[00:35:20] Greg: I’ve never heard of him before. . So, so again, one of the things that SEOs can do is tap into, I, and this is gonna sound astounding, market research. Whoa. Right.

[00:35:39] Matt: Well, in that, to me, you know, as I said, if I looked at that list and I’m like, these are things that haven’t changed and keyword research and market research, I, you know, when I, when I teach SEO, I tell people that there would be four of us in my agency.

[00:35:54] Matt: The keyword research for a new client would last about four days. Keyword research, it was surveys. [00:36:00] It was going back and forth and then trying to, what’s the cycle look like if we were to organize these? What are the words people are using? What are they’re associating with it? And what are, so we have our primary target.

[00:36:13] Matt: What are the, the secondary? What are the tertiary words they’re putting into here? What are the patterns? And, and it’s, Really just, you know, turning it upside down, sideways, stretching it, looking to see and learn what does the industry, what does our whole audience say, want, think about these words, about this need, and the amount, you know, after spending that much time, we knew more about the audience Then our client did, because now we’re coming back with data with evidence that this is how people think.

[00:36:51] Matt: And it was usually new to the client.

[00:36:55] Greg: Yeah. And life would be simple. If you have one audience, [00:37:00] one of the things that I go looking for. And market segmentation is not something that they teach you in SEO, but boy, it’s something that SEOs should learn. It’s, it’s a really old form of marketing, but boy, is it effective.

[00:37:18] Greg: And so with a recent client I was working with, we said, okay, you’re focused on this target audience. That’s great. Let me show you the other three target audiences that you’re ignoring. So if there are four different kinds of people who are using different search terms to get to what you offer, and you’re only optimizing for one of them, You’re basically letting your competitors scoop up the other three.

[00:37:48] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. No, that’s powerful. That’s powerful. And, and, and, and what you’re doing in one way is this has always been around keyword research and market research, but at the [00:38:00] same time, we’re adding another skill set on top of that, that your, your market research skills need to grow. You need to look at how you can develop, you know, through tools, through research, through learning new methods of learning about audiences in that way, it’s the same, but it’s new.

[00:38:21] Matt: And I think that’s a lot of what we’re seeing with SEO

[00:38:25] Greg: Then here’s the net net because SEOs will get this in an eye blink. Okay. In the early days, if I could find a keyword and I could optimize a page, I was a hero, right? Yes. That can be found for the page. Today I go in and I do this market segmentation and I do the keyword analysis and I say, okay, we’ve got four segments and each segment goes through an exploration and evaluation phase.

[00:38:49] Greg: So I’m going to propose to the client, not one, but eight pages of content. Why this set of two [00:39:00] is set up for keywords in the exploration or evaluation phase for segment one. This set of two is for segment two, et cetera, et cetera. And all of a sudden it’s like, I’m creating work for myself. It’s like, um, yeah, you could look at it this way.

[00:39:18] Greg: Or what I’m trying to do is solve the client problem. And yeah, they may need eight pages, not one. Mm

[00:39:24] Matt: hmm. Yeah, it’s, you know, this is, I think the clear evolution of SEO and what it’s becoming is SEO aren’t just now sprinkling keyword fairy dust into pages. It’s now, well, I mean, part of the tension. I’m going to bring up that word again.

[00:39:46] Matt: It’s my favorite word this month. Part of the tension and knowing this, there have been agencies and agencies. Who were marketing agencies and then the client would go out and hire also an SEO firm. So you’ve got your marketing agency coming up with [00:40:00] content, copy. They’ve got copywriters that they’re very, very intimately familiar with the product and all this.

[00:40:09] Matt: And then you have SEOs coming in saying, well, we need to put keywords in. And oh my goodness, the tension, the eruption of overflow of. Attention from that has caused a great deal. And so now I see more technical writers learning. SEO, I see copywriters learning, SEO rather than, you know, an SEO coming in and saying, put the keyword there.

[00:40:35] Matt: Put the keyword there, put the keyword there, or the SEO has to grow. And become a great writer, not just an optimizer, it’s got to be one of the other because the, the days of, of, of just putting in those words are

[00:40:51] Greg: gone. Yeah. And, and, and in some respects, this is a harder, uh, not to crack in the United States.[00:41:00] [00:41:00] Greg: Where we presume everybody speaks English. It’s easier not to crack in Europe where everyone presumes that I’ve got multiple languages. I got the Germans who speak German and I got the French who speak French. I got the English who speak well, a variation of English actually, if you go to Scotland, they don’t think they’re speaking English, but okay.

[00:41:24] Greg: Whatever the net net is, is that they’re, they’re used to. Dealing in a multilingual environment. In some respects, if Americans could learn, pardon me, you are in a multilingual environment. Let me give you an example, you know, go back to that word best that people will put on a search term. And so it could be pick a category, any category, you know, best vacation site.

[00:41:58] Greg: Okay. [00:42:00] That’s a target audience. I know what they’re looking for. Now, imagine the same set of search terms. Only now people are searching for cheap vacations. Is that the same audience? Right. Am I going to put the same content on that page? So again, we sometimes suffer from what I call mass marketing. We all.

[00:42:29] Greg: Some are rather still learn that somewhere in school and need to unlearn it because we don’t live in a mass market anymore. No, we live in a highly segmented market. Some would say a highly fragmented or a market, but I tend to see fragments of segments, but okay, whatever. But the bottom line is once you understand that different people are searching different ways.

[00:42:55] Greg: That means you need to craft different content for each of those [00:43:00] segments.

[00:43:01] Matt: Absolutely. I use the insurance industry. Have you done any work in the insurance industry? Uh, no. No? Okay. So, this is always one of my favorite things. I have done a lot of work in there. And one of the things I will Show the research.

[00:43:17] Matt: And I love diving it because this exactly what you’re talking about. There is classic car insurance. There is business car insurance. There is antique car insurance. And how many ways can you say antique classic or, you know, anything like that? There’s teen driver insurance. There’s, you know, as many types of there there is.

[00:43:37] Matt: And so how are people searching? What are they doing? And ultimately, when I show them the amount of people that are searching for cheap, Car insurance and there is a response. I get all the time. We, it is our practice not to say the word cheap, right? Okay, but that’s your audience your audience. That’s what they’re looking for You may not want to say it, but this is what they’re looking for [00:44:00] [00:44:00] Greg: now Well, I I had I had that experience not in the insurance industry, but I did work for Southwest Airlines And when I did my initial keyword research for them, guess what?

[00:44:12] Greg: Cheap flights, cheap fares, you know, cheap airline, you know, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And when I submitted my first draft of, it was actually a press release talking about their cheap airfares, I almost got fired because you don’t understand we’re not cheap. And fortunately I was standing next to Linda Rutherford, who was then the director.

[00:44:39] Greg: Of public relations. She’s now, by the way, the chief communications officer says she’s now an executive vice president. So thank you very much, Linda. She said, excuse me, sir, if we don’t use the word cheap, one of our competitors will, and we will be leaving money on the

[00:44:56] Matt: table, someone who saw the

[00:44:57] Greg: value.

[00:44:58] Greg: That was her, not me. That was her, [00:45:00] but you know what? That translated immediately. How much money are we leaving on the table?

[00:45:05] Matt: Yes. Wow. Great example. And, and that’s, that’s a thing. I, it’s the perception of the word, and that’s what they went to avoid the perception. We’re not cheap. They are seeing it in one word in one way.

[00:45:18] Matt: And I’m in a view of the word cheap or interpretation of the word. Whereas your audience. This is the easiest and fastest way. They’re not going to type inexpensive. They’re not going to type budget friendly. They’re going to type cheap. It’s it’s an understanding of the nuance of the word and but yet that corporate PR resistance of, oh, we’re not cheap.

[00:45:44] Matt: You know that that Eliminates a lot of that segmentation, but great story. I love how, you know, embrace it, embrace it.

[00:45:52] Greg: And, and, and, and then because they said, let’s, let’s figure out how much money we’re leaving on the table. That’s then when we went [00:46:00] to measuring it. And oh, by the way, in four press releases, 1, 2, 3, 4, we generated 2.

[00:46:05] Greg: 5 million in airline ticket sales. And it was like, Oh, there’s a lot of people looking for cheap.

[00:46:16] Matt: You know, and when you look at cheap vacations, when you look at cheap, anything, there’s a lot of people looking for it. That’s something out there. You bring up something interesting and, and my goodness, Greg, I can’t believe how much of time has gone by here, but you bring up the press releases.

[00:46:32] Matt: And because you brought that up, we’ve talked about architecture. We’ve talked about content. We have not talked about is what I consider the third leg of SEO. And that is links. And just yesterday I saw someone post about, look at all the traffic I’m getting and I’m buying links and, and they showed their link list of what they have bought and what the, the domain authority [00:47:00] is of those links.

[00:47:01] Matt: And, and listeners, if you’re not watching on YouTube and you are. Listening to the, I have domain authority in quotes and

[00:47:09] Greg: I’m making, I’m making painful face. Yes, yes,

[00:47:12] Matt: yes, yes. And don’t worry, we will follow up and explain why we don’t like domain authority and, and Greg, I have to tell you, I talked to someone and all they told me was their SEO company reports, domain authority, that’s the.

[00:47:28] Matt: Measurement that they are working on. And that is so painful listener, unless you are watching the video, you cannot see the pain in our faces when we talk about domain authority. So of course, this person is posting here’s how much traffic I’m getting. It’s working. It’s awesome. I just feel like in two months, they’re going to be one of those ones that says Google’s update killed my site and everything’s gone away and don’t come crying to me.

[00:47:53] Matt: Because you knew what you were doing, you wouldn’t be posting it otherwise, if

[00:47:59] Greg: you didn’t [00:48:00] know what you were doing. And there are still, how do I say this, black hat SEOs who are working for nefarious fly by night organizations who have created a business model over, when they shut me down, I’m going to go pop up with a new website and sell whatever.

[00:48:19] Greg: Illicit product that I’m going to use these black hat tactics to. And so, okay, fine. The black hats haven’t gone away. They’re just working the margins. But if you want to stay in business any length of time, or if you have an established brand or your organization is worried about its overall reputation, you know, that’s hopefully most of us.

[00:48:45] Greg: Then, yeah, yeah, what Matt is saying is, is absolutely critical. It’s like, don’t even play on the margins. You’ll have some SEOs who will claim, Oh, I’m gray hat. I’m not black hat. [00:49:00] And it’s like, pardon me. That’s shades of black. Okay. You think you’re smarter than Google is what you’re telling me. They’re not going to catch your trick.

[00:49:12] Greg: It’s like, have you checked out how many engineers they have these days? Have you checked out some of the technology that they’ve been deploying? You know, you’re toast. You’re toast. I remember having a dinner in, believe it or not, Stockholm. With a black hat and I’m thinking you want to have dinner with me.

[00:49:34] Greg: Okay, fine. That’s interesting. I’ll I’ll sure. Are you buying? Um, and why would you want to have dinner with me? Well, it’s getting harder and harder to be a black hat and still make a living. So how do I go? Legit was. Was the reason the black hat wanted to have dinner with me. And it’s like, Oh, okay. Google is starting to eat your lunch and your breakfast.

[00:49:59] Greg: Okay. [00:50:00] Well, yeah, maybe you should follow those Google guidelines and rules about not buying and selling links.

[00:50:07] Matt: It’s like, yeah, get real. That happened to so many, you know, and, and you and I could probably go down the list, how many, you know, how many of those, those black cats eventually turned to the, not turned away from the dark side.

[00:50:23] Matt: And that’s what I’m afraid of is that so much of the, the new SEO advice is coming from those fringes. It’s coming from those very aggressive tactics that they’re competing against each other in very aggressive industries that, you know, if you’re selling candles, you don’t have to compete there. You, you are not doing that

[00:50:51] Greg: if you’re selling generic Viagra and that’s the kind of client that a lot of them have, then, you know, fly by night is the, is [00:51:00] unfortunately the norm.

[00:51:03] Matt: Then you’re looking for that edge. Then you’re looking for that, that hole in the algorithm. Then you’re looking for that, that tactic that’s going to get you very temporary results. And unfortunately, a lot of that gets into mainstream thinking.

[00:51:17] Greg: Yeah. Yeah. So let’s go back to your, your initial question or observation, which is wait, press releases links.

[00:51:24] Greg: What are we talking about here? Absolutely. So one of the things that we, I dunno, pioneered, I guess we get credit for this over the years is if you’ve got really interesting news and news is key here and you provide in your press release a landing page. That says, by the way, if you go here, you can either get access to more information that’s relevant on this story.

[00:51:57] Greg: Then here’s the fun thing that [00:52:00] happens. The link in the press release actually does you no good whatsoever. Zero Google figured out in about 2005, how to eliminate, you know, any link juice from press releases, but if your news. Has a relevance to the reader of the press release and they start traveling that link and oh, by the way some of those readers are also journalists And they start writing about that news and also providing to their readers a link to that information all of a sudden you’re building links from authoritative sources, which is Hard to do unless you think about it.

[00:52:46] Greg: And we, we did it with, Oh, let’s say parents magazine. We were working with parents magazine, which is a Meredith publication out in Iowa, and one of the things that we announced was a new section of their [00:53:00] website, where if you were interested in whether a toy or a product had been recalled, particularly just before the Christmas season, when is this safe to buy?

[00:53:11] Greg: We’ve got this new website. It’s got an updated list of the products that have been recalled, so you don’t buy them. Well, the link to that page was something that legitimate media said, Oh, I’m going to put that in my story because that’s a really useful link and, you know, literally within weeks of the, the announcement, the press release going out with information on that link, we had 600 plus authoritative links.

[00:53:41] Greg: To a page that hadn’t existed the week before. Absolutely. So leveraging your news, you know, and communicating that in a press release, the press release link does nothing for you, but the news and the link have value that [00:54:00] can be leveraged. But again, that’s not something they teach you in SES SEO one on one.

[00:54:05] Greg: No. That’s not even something they teach you in advanced public relations, 404, it is a sort of a combination of best practices from different industries. And we’ve always found that the magic is, is when you start. Looking sideways at the best practices and oh, I don’t know, email marketing or the best practices and public relations or the best practices and you know, market segmentation and research, that’s when you add value to SEO.

[00:54:41] Matt: Yeah, absolutely. I, I’d been describing link building. It’s marketing. It’s letting other people know that you exist. It’s that’s link building. It’s it’s if you use marketing practices and view that, [00:55:00] and ultimately, so I, I’ve, I’m trying to distill this down in that link building is creating content that other people will use.

[00:55:09] Matt: To promote themselves that to me is link building it because that’s PR that’s the press release is I’m going to release a press release, but all these other journalists, all these other publications, they’re going to use that to write about it, to promote themselves, to promote their brand worked with the company.

[00:55:26] Matt: We created some original research that was the best link building project because people cited the research. They use the infographics, they put links back, it gave people content. To promote themselves. And by really just, it’s looking at, you know, what makes people link? What makes people from high authority, great, well known website, what makes them link to you?

[00:55:55] Matt: Things that are in their own

[00:55:56] Greg: interest. We have also found research works. One [00:56:00] of the clients that we had to work with was Harlequin Romance, and they’d commissioned some research and they found that, guess what, we have the data on what percentage of women lie, cheat and steal and compared it women from New York City, what percentage lie, cheat and steal versus, oh, I don’t know, Toronto.

[00:56:25] Greg: Which is where Harlequin Research, uh, Harlequin Romances is headquartered. And the fact that American women were more likely to light sheet and steel than Canadian women, it’s like, guess who wants to write about that story, you know? And so, yeah, research often sounds like boring stuff. But you can do research on exciting stuff.

[00:56:48] Greg: Absolutely. And yeah, we were able to build authoritative links talking about tawdry behavior.

[00:56:57] Matt: That is an invitation for links. That is [00:57:00] probably one of the easiest campaigns to build tapping into the human

[00:57:04] Greg: psyche. Oh, well, this was also the only client I’ve ever worked for where a relevant search term was.

[00:57:12] Greg: Bodice ripper. And it’s like, right. I’m going to optimize for that, that, that term. Got

[00:57:19] Matt: it. My, you know, someday you and I are going to have to sit down and really just, you know, I was reminded of some of the clients that we had just the other day and some of the things we had to work on and. We’re going to have to sit down and just kind of compare notes, Greg.

[00:57:35] Matt: I, I think the, the experiences we, I think you and I could probably write a book on the strange experiences we have had in this

[00:57:44] Greg: industry. Matt, we’ve already written a book.

[00:57:50] Matt: I’m talking about the, the stuff that if we were to record it, we would have to, uh, You know, maybe put a tag on it or something like that.

[00:57:56] Matt: But yes, dear listener, if you’re watching, uh, guess what I happen to [00:58:00] have here is a copy of the latest book that Greg and I collaborated on along with some other amazing authors as well. So digital marketing fundamentals. It is a guide to the OMCA certification. So those of you that are working on that, watching videos, if you want to read along with it, highly recommend,

[00:58:19] Greg: but there’s no bodice ripper stories.

[00:58:21] Greg: And somehow rather we, we do need to find, to tell all the stories that have been left on the cutting room floor. Oh,

[00:58:28] Matt: you know, the true crime podcasts. Are the number one type of podcast. So maybe we have like true SEO stories. I, that might be another or, or SEO

[00:58:40] Greg: crimes.

[00:58:42] Matt: There’s been a few of those.

[00:58:44] Greg: One, one, one of the things that is happening out here in Boston is there is a murder trial going on and it turns out that the husband who is accused of uh, murdering his wife.

[00:58:57] Greg: They got access to his laptop [00:59:00] computer and discovered not one, not two, but, you know, thousands of searches for how do I get rid of a body? So, yeah, guess what? Your search history is going to follow you.

[00:59:14] Matt: Absolutely. You’ve given me an idea, Greg. I think we will have to do a real SEO stories and, uh. We’ll do, I’ll do a little research on that, but that sounds like a great episode.

[00:59:28] Matt: Well, dear listener, I hope this has been a informative educational, if not a bit entertaining. And so this is, you know, to quote Greg’s quadrants of, I, I love that quadrant. I’m going to put that in the show notes too. Greg, your, your quadrant, uh, and I, I’m missing what you call it. Boy, education. The content

[00:59:49] Greg: marketing matrix.

[00:59:50] Matt: Yes, the content marketing matrix. Yes. Informative, educational, entertaining. And enlightening

[00:59:57] Greg: light, which is the one everyone forgets. [01:00:00] And it’s, it’s got, uh, an X and a Y axis. So it’s oversimplified, you know, it’s a two dimensional thinking and none of us want to be accused of two dimensional thinking, right?

[01:00:10] Greg: But you got to start somewhere. And, uh, one side is awareness and another side is action. And one side is emotional. Another side is, is rational and you can think is my approach educational. And that’s a awareness and rational approach, or is it entertaining that is an emotional, but awareness building approach, or do I want to take it beyond that?

[01:00:36] Greg: And do I want to use my content to basically get people to take the next step? Well, then I might want to inspire them. That’s using an emotion. Or I need to enlighten them, which means I need to change their mind before they quote, take some action. And so, yeah, that’s what that, that, uh, matrix is all about.

[01:00:56] Greg: And Matt, if you’re going to embed it, please do. I will. I will. [01:01:00] It’s helped me get started. But again, it’s two dimensional. There’s only four quadrants. The last article I wrote talked about the 39 quadrants in the current

[01:01:11] Matt: template. Well, with AI now you might be able to produce a three dimensional image with all of those.

[01:01:18] Greg: Well, I haven’t tried that, but yeah, there are a lot of new tools that I need to get

[01:01:24] Matt: to. Wow. You, you really went zero to 60 and complicating that. I’m sorry.

[01:01:29] Greg: I’m sorry. It wasn’t that I complicated it. It turns out the research did. Oh, yeah. There are a lot of universities out there, including Stanford who love complicating stuff.

[01:01:40] Greg: You know, it’s like, what, you got time in your hands? Oh, yeah, yeah. All right. You’re at a university. Nevermind. So one of the things that they’ve discovered is, is, yeah, it’s not just four different choices that you have. It’s a vast array of choices that you have. And we [01:02:00] just finished watching the Super Bowl commercials.

[01:02:02] Greg: Do you have a favorite,

[01:02:04] Matt: Matt? I, uh, you know what? I did not watch the Super Bowl. And I did not watch the commercials. I know. I still have a few days to do it. But I have not

[01:02:13] Greg: done that yet. We had friends over and so we got to watch it. And they were there to watch the commercials because the New England Patriots were not playing.

[01:02:20] Greg: So we don’t care about the football

[01:02:22] Matt: teams. I haven’t watched the Superbowl since the Patriots stopped playing.

[01:02:25] Greg: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So, so we were watching for the commercials. There were well over 60. Most of them featured celebrities of one form or another. Yeah, that’s typical. Most of them tried to be funny.

[01:02:39] Greg: That’s typical. And so in my mind, it was the ones that actually used a different vector. I’m not going to use a celebrity. I’m not going to try to be funny because you know what? Everybody else is. And it begins to blend together. And I can remember the funny celebrity, but I can’t [01:03:00] remember the brand that they were shilling.

[01:03:02] Greg: Right. So again, knowing the range of options you have. Is important whether you’re creating a Super Bowl commercial or you’re creating a page on a website, uh, for SEO, this is all useful stuff to know.

[01:03:16] Matt: Absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, going back to our, our writing and, and optimizing writing, that is a great place to start and figuring out what’s your tone.

[01:03:26] Matt: Where do you even want to develop that brand voice, that tone when you’re sitting down and developing for that. Audience. So I will be including that a couple other things here, Greg, as always, thank you so much for your time coming in and sharing your thoughts with us. All right, Matt. All right. Thanks a lot, dear listener.

[01:03:46] Matt: And Hey, I look forward to our next cup of coffee together on the endless coffee cup podcast. Thanks again for tuning in and joining us.

[01:03:58] Matt: You’ve been listening to [01:04:00] the endless. Coffee cup. If you enjoyed this episode, share it with somebody else. And of course, please take just a moment and rate or review us at your favorite podcast service. If you need more information, contact me at site logic, marketing. com. Thanks again for being such a great listener.